Finding Meaning in Our Daily Work (with Denise Daniels) [Your Corner of the World - Episode 2]

So, if you want a So, if you want a church to be church to be church to be truly effective, you truly effective, you truly effective, you need to know what people need to know what people need to know what people do all do all do all day long: what they do day long: what they do , who they , who they , who they hang out with, what hang out with, what hang out with, what opportunities they have. So opportunities they have. So opportunities they have. So I think I think it's very important to learn about your parishioners in this way it's very important to learn about your parishioners in this way . And also to . And also to . And also to help people help people help people understand the connection between what understand the connection between what understand the connection between what the Scriptures say the Scriptures say the Scriptures say and what they do and what they do and what they do in their day or in their day or in their day or night job, whatever it may night job, whatever it may night job, whatever it may be. Well be. Well , hello everyone. , hello everyone. Welcome to this Welcome to this Welcome to this issue of "Your issue of "Your issue of "Your Corner of the World." I'm Dan Corner of the World." I'm Dan Corner of the World." I'm Dan Doriani, and this is Mark Fogg Doriani, and this is Mark Fogg , my co-host. What are , my co-host. What are , my co-host. What are we doing here, we doing here, we doing here, Mark? Well, Dan, we're Mark? Well, Dan, we're Mark? Well, Dan, we're talking about the intersection of talking about the intersection of talking about the intersection of faith, work, and God's faith, work, and God's faith, work, and God's grace, and you've been grace, and you've been grace, and you've been doing this for a long time with doing this for a long time with doing this for a long time with great great great conversationalists, and it's conversationalists, and it's conversationalists, and it's great that we're great that we're great that we're together today for another together today for another together today for another conversation. conversation. Yes. And with us today is Yes. And with us today is Denise Daniels, who Denise Daniels, who Denise Daniels, who holds the holds the Hudson T. Harrison Professor of Entrepreneurship Hudson T. Harrison Professor of Entrepreneurship in the Department of Business and in the Department of Business and in the Department of Business and Economics at Economics at Economics at Wheaton College. It's always a Wheaton College. It's always a Wheaton College. It's always a pleasure to hold pleasure to hold pleasure to hold such a position. Congratulations such a position. Congratulations such a position. Congratulations on that, Denise.

on that, Denise. on that, Denise. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And your specialization And your specialization —let me —let me —let me tell you more about yourself tell you more about yourself tell you more about yourself —is the role of faith —is the role of faith —is the role of faith and ethics in the and ethics in the and ethics in the workplace, and the workplace, and the workplace, and the theology of work. If theology of work. If theology of work. If you don't know her, Denise is an experienced you don't know her, Denise is an experienced teacher and scholar teacher and scholar with extensive experience in with extensive experience in with extensive experience in Christian higher Christian higher Christian higher education. She teaches education. She teaches education. She teaches at Wheaton College and at Wheaton College and at Wheaton College and previously worked at previously worked at previously worked at Seattle Seattle Pacific University, where she was a Pacific University, where she was a Pacific University, where she was a professor, dean, and professor, dean, and professor, dean, and vice president. vice president. She has written three She has written three books, or rather—this is books, or rather—this is books, or rather—this is important, what we’re important, what we’re important, what we’re going to talk about—she is a going to talk about—she is a going to talk about—she is a co-author of three co-author of three co-author of three books: 2019’s “Working books: 2019’s “Working books: 2019’s “Working in the Presence of God: in the Presence of God: in the Presence of God: Spiritual Practices for Spiritual Practices for Spiritual Practices for Everyday Work” ( Everyday Work” ( we’ll talk about that we’ll talk about that we’ll talk about that at the very beginning); at the very beginning); at the very beginning); then "Religion in the then "Religion in the Changing Workplace" (2024); and Changing Workplace" (2024); and 2025—our 2025—our 2025—our focus today— focus today— “Working for Better: A “Working for Better: A “Working for Better: A New Approach to Faith New Approach to Faith New Approach to Faith at Work.” You also at Work.” You also at Work.” You also received a large received a large received a large research grant research grant research grant that is behind that is behind that is behind some of your some of your some of your work in this book. This is work in this book. This is work in this book. This is just wonderful. I will also just wonderful. I will also just wonderful. I will also add that you are also a add that you are also a add that you are also a mother. We just mother. We just mother. We just met met met your husband.

your husband. your husband. You have a busy life, and You have a busy life, and You have a busy life, and yet one of your yet one of your yet one of your focuses is focuses is focuses is relaxation. So, what did relaxation. So, what did relaxation. So, what did we miss about we miss about we miss about who you are and what would you who you are and what would you who you are and what would you like our like our like our listeners to know about you listeners to know about you , and then we'll , and then we'll , and then we'll talk about the talk about the talk about the rest. rest. rest. Thank you. One quick Thank you. One quick Thank you. One quick clarification: this is clarification: this is clarification: this is Wheaton College, not Wheaton College, not Wheaton College, not Wheaton University. Wheaton University. Wheaton University. So they would be happy So they would be happy So they would be happy if I clarified if I clarified if I clarified this particular point. Um, well, this particular point. Um, well, this particular point. Um, well, I'm very busy, but I'm very busy, but I'm very busy, but I'm on I'm on I'm on sabbatical right now—it's one of sabbatical right now—it's one of sabbatical right now—it's one of those wonderful those wonderful those wonderful academic periods academic periods when you don't teach for an when you don't teach for an when you don't teach for an entire semester. So entire semester. So entire semester. So all my colleagues started all my colleagues started all my colleagues started work yesterday, and I'm work yesterday, and I'm work yesterday, and I'm working from home, as you working from home, as you working from home, as you may have noticed when may have noticed when may have noticed when my husband came in to my husband came in to my husband came in to provide technical provide technical provide technical assistance right before the assistance right before the assistance right before the recording started. Um, recording started. Um, recording started. Um, one more thing one more thing one more thing you didn't mention you didn't mention you didn't mention about my about my about my roles in life is that roles in life is that roles in life is that I'm a grandmother. So, I'm a grandmother. So, I'm a grandmother. So, we have four we have four we have four grown children and two grown children and two grown children and two grandchildren, with whom we grandchildren, with whom we grandchildren, with whom we try to try to try to spend a lot of spend a lot of spend a lot of time. So, time. So, time. So, um, well, Mark and I um, well, Mark and I um, well, Mark and I share your share your share your enthusiasm for the enthusiasm for the enthusiasm for the next generation next generation , the next generational shift , the next generational shift , the next generational shift . We are both . We are both . We are both grandfathers, so we are happy to grandfathers, so we are happy to grandfathers, so we are happy to share this. And all you share this. And all you share this. And all you young listeners, in the young listeners, in the young listeners, in the next episode next episode next episode we will have a 27-year-old we will have a 27-year-old we will have a 27-year-old guest. So, Denise, guest. So, Denise, guest. So, Denise, one of your areas of one of your areas of one of your areas of interest is interest is interest is recreation, and you are a recreation, and you are a recreation, and you are a busy person. Us busy person. Us busy person. Us too. What do you want too. What do you want too. What do you want to tell us about to tell us about to tell us about vacation? Why is this vacation? Why is this vacation? Why is this one of your areas of one of your areas of one of your areas of interest? Why are all the interest? Why are all the interest? Why are all the talented people—this talented people—this talented people—this podcast is primarily podcast is primarily podcast is primarily for leaders, and leaders are for leaders, and leaders are for leaders, and leaders are usually people with usually people with usually people with God-given

God-given God-given abilities. They abilities. They abilities. They had training, had training, had training, mentors, experience, and mentors, experience, and mentors, experience, and they have energy. they have energy. they have energy. Why is it important for everyone Why is it important for everyone Why is it important for everyone to rest? And how do you to rest? And how do you to rest? And how do you relax? relax? relax? Yes. So I would say Yes. So I would say Yes. So I would say that a lot of my that a lot of my that a lot of my research is, to some research is, to some research is, to some extent, about myself extent, about myself extent, about myself . So, . So, . So, you know, throughout my you know, throughout my you know, throughout my career I've been trying career I've been trying career I've been trying to figure out how do I to figure out how do I to figure out how do I live my life in a way that's live my life in a way that's live my life in a way that's true to myself? So my true to myself? So my true to myself? So my interest in faith and interest in faith and interest in faith and work at their work at their work at their intersection really intersection really intersection really starts with my starts with my starts with my own questions. And own questions. And own questions. And it started at the very it started at the very it started at the very beginning of my beginning of my beginning of my career. I have been working as career. I have been working as career. I have been working as a teacher for 31 years. a teacher for 31 years. a teacher for 31 years. But a few But a few But a few years after starting, I years after starting, I years after starting, I was newly married. My was newly married. My was newly married. My husband and I had husband and I had two children very quickly. And, honestly two children very quickly. And, honestly , I was just , I was just , I was just exhausted. Um, and I exhausted. Um, and I exhausted. Um, and I felt like my felt like my felt like my faith should have something to faith should have something to faith should have something to say about my say about my say about my real life. And real life. And real life. And then I thought: well, then I thought: well, then I thought: well, you know, this idea of you know, this idea of you know, this idea of Saturday, maybe there's Saturday, maybe there's Saturday, maybe there's something to it. Maybe something to it. Maybe something to it. Maybe this is something I need to this is something I need to this is something I need to think about properly think about properly think about properly . So, like a . So, like a . So, like a true scientist, true scientist, true scientist, I started I started I started researching this. And researching this. And researching this. And so early in my so early in my so early in my career you will find career you will find career you will find several scholarly several scholarly several scholarly works devoted to works devoted to works devoted to some aspect of the some aspect of the some aspect of the Sabbath. I actually Sabbath. I actually Sabbath. I actually worked with two of worked with two of worked with two of my colleagues, um, my colleagues, um, my colleagues, um, at at Seattle Pacific University back in the day.

Seattle Pacific University back in the day. And, um, all three of us And, um, all three of us And, um, all three of us were interested in how were interested in how were interested in how we can live our lives we can live our lives we can live our lives in a rhythm that honors in a rhythm that honors in a rhythm that honors God, that also God, that also God, that also draws on our draws on our draws on our talents, our skills talents, our skills talents, our skills and abilities that and abilities that and abilities that God has given us, and the roles that we God has given us, and the roles that we God has given us, and the roles that we have, and how to do that have, and how to do that have, and how to do that right. And it all started with me right. And it all started with me right. And it all started with me actually setting aside actually setting aside actually setting aside one day a one day a one day a week when I didn't week when I didn't week when I didn't work. And, to be honest work. And, to be honest work. And, to be honest , it , it , it was a little scary at first, was a little scary at first, was a little scary at first, because I was sure that because I was sure that because I was sure that on Monday morning I would on Monday morning I would on Monday morning I would just be completely just be completely just be completely unprepared for whatever unprepared for whatever unprepared for whatever was on the schedule for was on the schedule for was on the schedule for that day, classes or that day, classes or that day, classes or meetings, whatever. meetings, whatever. And it was strange: And it was strange: for many for many for many years I was surprised years I was surprised years I was surprised that on Monday no one that on Monday no one that on Monday no one noticed that I was noticed that I was noticed that I was unprepared or unprepared or unprepared or something. And I started to something. And I started to something. And I started to realize that, realize that, realize that, you know, it wasn't actually you know, it wasn't actually you know, it wasn't actually hurting me at all. hurting me at all. hurting me at all. In fact, it gives In fact, it gives In fact, it gives me a lot of me a lot of me a lot of strength back. This gives me the strength back. This gives me the strength back. This gives me the opportunity opportunity opportunity to shift my to shift my to shift my focus that day to focus that day to focus that day to things that are important in a things that are important in a things that are important in a completely different way than completely different way than completely different way than my nine- my nine- my nine- to-five job. Although my to-five job. Although my to-five job. Although my job wasn't job wasn't job wasn't nine to five, nine to five, nine to five, my workweek my workweek my workweek was like a was like a was like a regular job.

regular job. regular job. Oho. So, Denise, did Oho. So, Denise, did Oho. So, Denise, did you find a you find a you find a point in time where point in time where point in time where relaxation became not relaxation became not relaxation became not just more comfortable, just more comfortable, just more comfortable, but part of your but part of your but part of your lifestyle, and it wasn't lifestyle, and it wasn't lifestyle, and it wasn't something that had to be something that had to be something that had to be practiced practiced practiced intentionally? It has become intentionally? It has become intentionally? It has become part of the rhythm of part of the rhythm of part of the rhythm of your life. How your life. How your life. How long did it long did it long did it take? take? take? Probably decades. I Probably decades. I Probably decades. I don't know if that's don't know if that's don't know if that's encouraging or not. encouraging or not. encouraging or not. You are very slow, but You are very slow, but You are very slow, but you encourage those you encourage those you encourage those of us who are of us who are of us who are struggling. I'm still struggling. I'm still struggling. I'm still working on some working on some working on some issues 25 years later issues 25 years later . So, me too. . So, me too. . So, me too. Yes. I, I mean, I Yes. I, I mean, I Yes. I, I mean, I think after 10 years it think after 10 years it think after 10 years it became absolutely became absolutely became absolutely clear to me that this is a day clear to me that this is a day clear to me that this is a day when I just don't when I just don't when I just don't work. work. work. Um, there are a lot of times Um, there are a lot of times Um, there are a lot of times when there are when there are when there are moments where you moments where you moments where you think, "Oh, maybe think, "Oh, maybe think, "Oh, maybe I should just I should just I should just do this one thing do this one thing do this one thing this day." That is, there are this day." That is, there are this day." That is, there are many temptations along the many temptations along the many temptations along the way. And I'm not a way. And I'm not a way. And I'm not a very legalistic very legalistic very legalistic person when it person when it person when it comes to these comes to these comes to these things. Um, someone things. Um, someone things. Um, someone watching watching watching me might say, " me might say, " Well, isn't this work?" Well, isn't this work?" Well, isn't this work?" or something like that. I'm or something like that. I'm or something like that. I'm sure there are sure there are sure there are ways they ways they ways they could expose me. could expose me. could expose me. Um, not living fully Um, not living fully Um, not living fully according to according to according to what what what God's intentions might be, but I would God's intentions might be, but I would God's intentions might be, but I would say that after say that after say that after 10 years, it probably 10 years, it probably 10 years, it probably became clear to me, became clear to me, became clear to me, my family, and the people my family, and the people my family, and the people around me that this is a day around me that this is a day around me that this is a day that is really that is really that is really meant for other meant for other meant for other things and in other things and in other things and in other ways. Wow, this is ways. Wow, this is ways. Wow, this is so exciting. Did so exciting. Did so exciting. Did you manage you manage you manage to identify to identify to identify any generational any generational any generational differences or ideas during your research?

differences or ideas during your research? For example, you know, For example, you know, baby boomers versus baby boomers versus baby boomers versus millennials, millennials, millennials, Gen X versus Gen X versus Gen X versus millennials, and millennials, and millennials, and Gen Z. Are there Gen Z. Are there Gen Z. Are there any observations any observations any observations about about about work- work- work- life balance? life balance? life balance? So, yeah, I So, yeah, I So, yeah, I mean, when I started mean, when I started mean, when I started this, it was probably in the this, it was probably in the this, it was probably in the late 90s. So late 90s. So late 90s. So we didn't have, I we didn't have, I we didn't have, I mean, we didn't even have mean, we didn't even have mean, we didn't even have millennials in the millennials in the millennials in the workplace yet workplace yet workplace yet , right? That was , right? That was , right? That was quite a long time ago. And what quite a long time ago. And what quite a long time ago. And what I've seen over the I've seen over the I've seen over the last two and a last two and a last two and a half decades half decades is that, to me, is that, to me, is that, to me, older people, and I would older people, and I would older people, and I would add baby add baby boomers, and also boomers, and also boomers, and also Gen X, and I'm Gen X, and I'm Gen X myself, Gen X myself, fall into this fall into this fall into this category. They category. They category. They tend to believe that it is tend to believe that it is tend to believe that it is important to work. important to work. important to work. It is important to be It is important to be It is important to be diligent. It is important diligent. It is important diligent. It is important to dedicate to dedicate to dedicate all your time to this. And all your time to this. And all your time to this. And millennials and millennials and Gen Zers are a little Gen Zers are a little more likely to more likely to more likely to think, "Wait, I think, "Wait, I think, "Wait, I want to make sure want to make sure want to make sure my life is a little my life is a little my life is a little more cohesive." And more cohesive." And more cohesive." And so I think so I think so I think young people have a young people have a young people have a certain natural certain natural certain natural tendency to tendency to tendency to be more mindful be more mindful be more mindful of these rhythms of work of these rhythms of work of these rhythms of work and rest. Although and rest. Although and rest. Although it could also go in the it could also go in the it could also go in the opposite opposite opposite direction. Because there are direction. Because there are direction. Because there are mistakes at both mistakes at both mistakes at both ends of this spectrum.

ends of this spectrum. ends of this spectrum. You can work You can work You can work so hard that you don't so hard that you don't so hard that you don't rest and rest and rest and live according to live according to live according to God's plans, but God's plans, but God's plans, but you can also you can also you can also rest so rest so rest so much that you don't work at all much that you don't work at all much that you don't work at all . And this may . And this may . And this may be a problem of a slightly be a problem of a slightly be a problem of a slightly different kind. So, you different kind. So, you different kind. So, you know, both ends of know, both ends of know, both ends of this continuum, I this continuum, I this continuum, I think, are think, are think, are inconsistent with what inconsistent with what inconsistent with what God is demonstrating to us God is demonstrating to us and what He and what He and what He created us for. But I created us for. But I created us for. But I personally personally personally tend to tend to tend to work too work too work too much more often, so I much more often, so I much more often, so I need to need to need to make sure these make sure these make sure these rest rhythms are rest rhythms are rest rhythms are built in. built in. built in. Yes. Thank you. So, another theme is evident in Yes. Thank you. So, another theme is evident in Yes. Thank you. So, another theme is evident in your work your work , namely, cooperation and a certain cooperation and a certain cooperation and a certain shared approach to shared approach to shared approach to things. And it didn't things. And it didn't things. And it didn't escape my escape my escape my attention that your attention that your attention that your books are books are books are co-authored, I've also co-authored, I've also co-authored, I've also written books written books written books co-authored and solo, co-authored and solo, co-authored and solo, and writing together is and writing together is and writing together is harder in some ways, but harder in some ways, but harder in some ways, but you seem committed to you seem committed to you seem committed to it. What do you it. What do you it. What do you get from the get from the get from the collaborative aspect of collaborative aspect of collaborative aspect of writing books with writing books with writing books with someone? How does this make someone? How does this make someone? How does this make your work your work your work more efficient, well, more efficient, well, more efficient, well, maybe more enjoyable?

maybe more enjoyable? maybe more enjoyable? That is, you don't That is, you don't That is, you don't have to do have to do have to do everything yourself. Well, everything yourself. Well, everything yourself. Well, do it all yourself. do it all yourself. do it all yourself. But it's also But it's also But it's also related, we'll related, we'll related, we'll get to that get to that get to that later. This is due to later. This is due to later. This is due to your desire your desire your desire to avoid to avoid to avoid individualism in individualism in individualism in work in general and have a work in general and have a work in general and have a more collective more collective more collective approach. But let's approach. But let's approach. But let's talk about your talk about your talk about your desire to do desire to do desire to do research and research and collaborative writing. collaborative writing. Yes. So, I'll tell Yes. So, I'll tell Yes. So, I'll tell you this. There is a short you this. There is a short you this. There is a short story from 1996. It story from 1996. It story from 1996. It was a long time ago, but I was was a long time ago, but I was was a long time ago, but I was being interviewed for my being interviewed for my being interviewed for my first academic first academic first academic position, and one of the position, and one of the position, and one of the older men, older men, older men, who later became who later became who later became a colleague, but he a colleague, but he a colleague, but he was on the committee at the time, he was on the committee at the time, he was on the committee at the time, he looked critically at looked critically at looked critically at my CV, well, that's a my CV, well, that's a my CV, well, that's a fancy academic fancy academic fancy academic word for CV. And word for CV. And word for CV. And I noticed that all my I noticed that all my I noticed that all my publications at that publications at that publications at that time were time were time were co-authored. And he co-authored. And he co-authored. And he asked, "Are asked, "Are asked, "Are you really doing this work, you really doing this work, you really doing this work, or is it someone else, and or is it someone else, and or is it someone else, and you're just, you know, you're just, you know, you're just, you know, taking advantage of someone else's taking advantage of someone else's taking advantage of someone else's achievements?" achievements?" achievements?" And I said, you know, And I said, you know, And I said, you know, honestly, honestly, honestly, things, things, things, oh, yeah, you've been oh, yeah, you've been oh, yeah, you've been patient, I'm patient, I'm patient, I'm sure. sure. sure. Well, I don't know if Well, I don't know if Well, I don't know if he said it that he said it that he said it that directly, but that was the directly, but that was the directly, but that was the obvious implication of the obvious implication of the obvious implication of the question. And my question. And my question. And my answer was, " answer was, " You know, the truth is, You know, the truth is, You know, the truth is, I like I like I like working with other working with other working with other people, but my people, but my people, but my work is also better work is also better work is also better when I work with when I work with when I work with others." And if that others." And if that others." And if that becomes a problem, then becomes a problem, then becomes a problem, then maybe I'm not the right maybe I'm not the right maybe I'm not the right person person person for the role. And as it for the role. And as it for the role. And as it turned out, it wasn't a turned out, it wasn't a turned out, it wasn't a problem, or not problem, or not problem, or not so big that so big that so big that I wouldn't be hired. But I I wouldn't be hired. But I I wouldn't be hired. But I think the two think the two think the two answers are that answers are that answers are that I work I work I work better because I better because I better because I have more have more have more fun when I fun when I fun when I work with someone who work with someone who work with someone who can keep can keep can keep my energy and my energy and my energy and focus up, focus up, focus up, and the end and the end and the end result is better

result is better result is better when I work with when I work with when I work with someone else because they someone else because they someone else because they find flaws in find flaws in find flaws in my thinking, and my thinking, and my thinking, and vice versa. So we vice versa. So we vice versa. So we can have these can have these can have these conversations, and it's no longer conversations, and it's no longer conversations, and it's no longer just one just one just one person's ideas. They have already person's ideas. They have already person's ideas. They have already gone through a certain gone through a certain gone through a certain filter and a certain filter and a certain filter and a certain evaluation process during the evaluation process during the evaluation process during the work. work. Yes. So I, of course, Yes. So I, of course, deeply appreciate it, deeply appreciate it, deeply appreciate it, Denise. I also want to Denise. I also want to Denise. I also want to make sure we make sure we make sure we have time have time have time to talk about the fact that to talk about the fact that to talk about the fact that Americans in general Americans in general Americans in general tend to be tend to be tend to be individualists. And individualists. And individualists. And when Mark and I when Mark and I when Mark and I talk to people about talk to people about talk to people about their work, we their work, we their work, we both notice that both notice that both notice that they think, “Well, I’m they think, “Well, I’m they think, “Well, I’m staying staying staying Christian in the Christian in the Christian in the workplace if I workplace if I workplace if I share my faith, share my faith, share my faith, if I’m kind to if I’m kind to if I’m kind to my coworkers, and if at my coworkers, and if at my coworkers, and if at the end of the day I the end of the day I the end of the day I put aside a little put aside a little put aside a little money for things money for things money for things I care about: I care about: I care about: church and other church and other church and other needs.” And, you know, needs.” And, you know, needs.” And, you know, maybe this brings maybe this brings maybe this brings us back to Wesley, who us back to Wesley, who said many years ago: earn said many years ago: earn as much as you can and as much as you can and as much as you can and give as much as you can give as much as you can . And this, they say, is what it . And this, they say, is what it . And this, they say, is what it means to be a means to be a means to be a Christian at Christian at Christian at work. We are not against work. We are not against work. We are not against this. We wholeheartedly this. We wholeheartedly this. We wholeheartedly support sharing support sharing support sharing our faith, our faith, our faith, treating colleagues well, and being treating colleagues well, and being treating colleagues well, and being generous with our generous with our money, but we also money, but we also believe there is believe there is believe there is much more to it. Could much more to it. Could much more to it. Could you you you tell us what tell us what tell us what your beliefs are your beliefs are your beliefs are about the need to about the need to about the need to see the systemic and see the systemic and see the systemic and societal aspects of societal aspects of societal aspects of work?

work? work? You know, what you've You know, what you've You know, what you've noticed is these very noticed is these very noticed is these very individualistic individualistic individualistic approaches to faith at approaches to faith at approaches to faith at work. And they are good. work. And they are good. work. And they are good. They are not bad. So I They are not bad. So I They are not bad. So I want to make sure that want to make sure that want to make sure that whatever I say next whatever I say next whatever I say next doesn't undermine these things, doesn't undermine these things, doesn't undermine these things, because they are important and because they are important and because they are important and useful. And it is useful. And it is useful. And it is also important for us also important for us also important for us to recognize that we are to recognize that we are to recognize that we are embedded in embedded in embedded in structures and systems structures and systems structures and systems that shape not only that shape not only that shape not only our own our own our own behavior, but also the behavior, but also the behavior, but also the behavior of the people behavior of the people behavior of the people around us. And sometimes around us. And sometimes around us. And sometimes these structures are not the these structures are not the these structures are not the best. Sometimes these best. Sometimes these best. Sometimes these structures structures structures lead us in lead us in lead us in directions that directions that directions that distance us from distance us from distance us from God's plan for God's plan for God's plan for us. So I think it's important for us. So I think it's important for us. So I think it's important for us—and this is what us—and this is what us—and this is what Ella and I wrote about in Working Ella and I wrote about in Working Ella and I wrote about in Working for Better— for Better— for Better— to say, yes, we to say, yes, we to say, yes, we want to be honest want to be honest want to be honest at work as at work as at work as individuals. We individuals. We individuals. We want to make sure want to make sure want to make sure we do the right thing we do the right thing we do the right thing personally, but we personally, but we personally, but we also want also want also want Christians in particular to Christians in particular to Christians in particular to be attuned to the be attuned to the be attuned to the wider community and the wider community and the wider community and the wider structures and wider structures and wider structures and systems that operate systems that operate systems that operate around us. To some extent, around us. To some extent, around us. To some extent, this should come as no this should come as no this should come as no surprise to surprise to surprise to Christians, and it should not Christians, and it should not Christians, and it should not be difficult for those be difficult for those who know the who know the who know the Scriptures, where we see a Scriptures, where we see a Scriptures, where we see a constant focus on constant focus on constant focus on community—whether it be the community—whether it be the community—whether it be the people of Israel people of Israel people of Israel in the Old Testament in the Old Testament in the Old Testament or the Christian or the Christian or the Christian community in the New community in the New community in the New Testament. We see Testament. We see Testament. We see the idea in the idea in the idea in Paul's epistles about the body Paul's epistles about the body Paul's epistles about the body of Christ and the understanding of Christ and the understanding of Christ and the understanding that each of us that each of us that each of us individually can individually can individually can only do a only do a only do a limited amount of limited amount of limited amount of work. We must work. We must work. We must work collectively work collectively work collectively with other people to with other people to with other people to fulfill God's purposes in fulfill God's purposes in fulfill God's purposes in the world. So, we

the world. So, we the world. So, we must not only must not only must not only be aware of the be aware of the be aware of the existence of certain existence of certain existence of certain structures, but also structures, but also structures, but also understand that our understand that our understand that our role is limited, so role is limited, so role is limited, so we need to we need to we need to unite with unite with unite with other people to other people to other people to implement implement implement positive changes. positive changes. positive changes. Yes. Denise, in this Yes. Denise, in this Yes. Denise, in this context, if someone context, if someone context, if someone works in an organization works in an organization works in an organization and is committed to helping and is committed to helping and is committed to helping create a culture where create a culture where create a culture where people can people can people can thrive, what should they thrive, what should they thrive, what should they do? Since our do? Since our do? Since our priority is priority is individualism, not individualism, not individualism, not community, what would you community, what would you community, what would you recommend? How can they recommend? How can they recommend? How can they look at it from a look at it from a look at it from a different angle and take different angle and take different angle and take concrete steps? concrete steps? concrete steps? Yes. And again, Yes. And again, Yes. And again, in the end, you can in the end, you can in the end, you can only be responsible for only be responsible for only be responsible for yourself, meaning you can yourself, meaning you can yourself, meaning you can only take only take only take individual steps. individual steps. individual steps. So the question arises: So the question arises: So the question arises: what exactly are the what exactly are the what exactly are the individual actions that individual actions that individual actions that can be taken to can be taken to can be taken to influence the broader influence the broader influence the broader system or culture? system or culture? I think, especially for I think, especially for those in those in those in leadership positions, leadership positions, leadership positions, it's important to first it's important to first it's important to first stop and stop and stop and ask yourself: what ask yourself: what ask yourself: what systems are operating systems are operating systems are operating around me that I may around me that I may around me that I may not notice because they have not notice because they have not notice because they have become part of my become part of my become part of my everyday life? So, everyday life? So, everyday life? So, I think it's worth I think it's worth I think it's worth pausing sometimes, pausing sometimes, pausing sometimes, reflecting, and reflecting, and reflecting, and asking how asking how asking how these systemic factors these systemic factors these systemic factors affect affect affect individuals? What do individuals? What do individuals? What do n't I see right away? I also n't I see right away? I also n't I see right away? I also think it's think it's think it's important for leaders to think important for leaders to think important for leaders to think about what about what about what behaviors they behaviors they behaviors they demonstrate and what kind of demonstrate and what kind of demonstrate and what kind of culture culture culture these actions create if everyone these actions create if everyone these actions create if everyone started behaving the same way started behaving the same way started behaving the same way ? So, if everyone ? So, if everyone ? So, if everyone does what does what does what I do, what kind of culture will I do, what kind of culture will result? In one result? In one of our books, we of our books, we of our books, we talk about the concept of an talk about the concept of an talk about the concept of an embodied culture of

embodied culture of embodied culture of care. The idea is care. The idea is care. The idea is that you can that you can that you can care for care for care for others, and this habit of others, and this habit of others, and this habit of caring for others caring for others caring for others has a ripple effect, has a ripple effect, has a ripple effect, affecting the people affecting the people affecting the people around you. When this becomes the around you. When this becomes the around you. When this becomes the norm in an organization, a norm in an organization, a system begins to form where people system begins to form where people care about each care about each care about each other, instead of other, instead of other, instead of being ruthless, being ruthless, being ruthless, competitive, or competitive, or competitive, or focused focused focused solely on themselves. solely on themselves. solely on themselves. It's worth taking a step It's worth taking a step It's worth taking a step back to recognize the back to recognize the back to recognize the levers of influence that levers of influence that levers of influence that I may not have previously I may not have previously I may not have previously paid attention to. What paid attention to. What paid attention to. What behaviors can I behaviors can I behaviors can I demonstrate to demonstrate to demonstrate to have this kind of have this kind of have this kind of cultural impact? cultural impact? cultural impact? It is important It is important It is important to be aware of the extent to be aware of the extent to be aware of the extent to which your to which your to which your organization may be organization may be organization may be pushing you away pushing you away pushing you away from behavior that is from behavior that is from behavior that is consistent with consistent with consistent with Christian ethics. Are Christian ethics. Are Christian ethics. Are you forced to you forced to you forced to resort to quick resort to quick resort to quick but dishonest decisions? Are but dishonest decisions? Are but dishonest decisions? Are you always honest? you always honest? I think it's I think it's very easy for us to make very easy for us to make very easy for us to make small small small decisions along the way that decisions along the way that decisions along the way that gradually move gradually move gradually move us away from the ideal, so it's us away from the ideal, so it's us away from the ideal, so it's important to learn to important to learn to important to learn to pay attention to these pay attention to these pay attention to these small actions. You, you small actions. You, you small actions. You, you make me make me make me think about two things think about two things , and neither of them is , and neither of them is , and neither of them is on the list of on the list of on the list of issues I issues I issues I said they would be.

said they would be. said they would be. But, you know, I've been in But, you know, I've been in But, you know, I've been in organizations where the organizations where the organizations where the leader is always grateful, leader is always grateful, leader is always grateful, always expresses always expresses always expresses appreciation, always appreciation, always appreciation, always acknowledges the strengths of the acknowledges the strengths of the acknowledges the strengths of the people people people around him, and it's around him, and it's around him, and it's so constructive, so constructive, so constructive, so healing, so so healing, so so healing, so positive. And also, just positive. And also, just positive. And also, just twice in the last twice in the last twice in the last few hours I've few hours I've few hours I've spoken to spoken to spoken to believers who have believers who have believers who have long-term illnesses, and, long-term illnesses, and, long-term illnesses, and, you know, we were you know, we were you know, we were part of their part of their part of their support group or support group or support group or helping them. And they helping them. And they helping them. And they just said it was just said it was just said it was so wonderful that the church so wonderful that the church so wonderful that the church cared about us. Do you cared about us. Do you cared about us. Do you need something? We don't need something? We don't need something? We don't need anything because our need anything because our need anything because our church just church just church just consistently takes care of consistently takes care of consistently takes care of us. And now the system us. And now the system us. And now the system works. So it's not works. So it's not works. So it's not like, "Oh, what can we like, "Oh, what can we like, "Oh, what can we do to do to do to help these people?" help these people?" help these people?" Our church has been doing this for Our church has been doing this for Our church has been doing this for 10 or 20 years. And that's 10 or 20 years. And that's 10 or 20 years. And that's almost, I say that in a almost, I say that in a almost, I say that in a positive way. It's positive way. It's positive way. It's almost taken for almost taken for almost taken for granted that we granted that we granted that we do it, of course. do it, of course. do it, of course. Of course, we will help Of course, we will help Of course, we will help this woman whose this woman whose this woman whose husband has been seriously ill husband has been seriously ill husband has been seriously ill for two years. for two years. for two years. Yes. Because it Yes. Because it Yes. Because it created such a created such a created such a culture. So, culture. So, culture. So, what what what cultures are you a part of? And are cultures are you a part of? And are cultures are you a part of? And are they all directed as they all directed as they all directed as you hoped?

you hoped? you hoped? Yes. Can I Yes. Can I Yes. Can I go back to go back to go back to individualism a little? And individualism a little? And individualism a little? And one of the things I've one of the things I've one of the things I've noticed when I talk noticed when I talk noticed when I talk about faith and work in a about faith and work in a about faith and work in a public public public setting, in church setting, in church setting, in church or at a conference, is that or at a conference, is that or at a conference, is that when I read to them when I read to them Matthew 25, "I was Matthew 25, "I was hungry and you gave hungry and you gave hungry and you gave me something to eat." I was me something to eat." I was me something to eat." I was thirsty. You gave thirsty. You gave thirsty. You gave me a drink. I was naked me a drink. I was naked and you clothed me. I and you clothed me. I and you clothed me. I tell them what it means tell them what it means : if you play : if you play : if you play any role in any role in any role in providing providing providing food to people, whether you're a farmer food to people, whether you're a farmer food to people, whether you're a farmer or a truck driver or a truck driver or a truck driver or you, you know, or you, you know, or you, you know, stocking stocking stocking shelves at the shelves at the shelves at the grocery grocery grocery store, everything you store, everything you store, everything you do is part of do is part of do is part of that. And people are simply that. And people are simply that. And people are simply amazed. They thought, amazed. They thought, amazed. They thought, "Oh, I thought I was feeding the "Oh, I thought I was feeding the "Oh, I thought I was feeding the hungry when hungry when hungry when I brought food to my I brought food to my I brought food to my neighbor." Well, you neighbor." Well, you neighbor." Well, you do, do, do, but you do it but you do it but you do it about 10 times a about 10 times a about 10 times a year. If you year. If you year. If you work in the food work in the food work in the food industry, you industry, you industry, you provide people with provide people with provide people with food all the time. food all the time. food all the time. If, if you If, if you If, if you work as a plumber work as a plumber , a , a hydraulic engineer or hydraulic engineer or hydraulic engineer or whatever, I, I'm whatever, I, I'm whatever, I, I'm always amazed always amazed always amazed at how surprised people are when at how surprised people are when at how surprised people are when I say this: I say this: I say this: their day job is their day job is their day job is almost forgotten, even though almost forgotten, even though almost forgotten, even though they, they do these they, they do these they, they do these things if they things if they things if they work work work 40 or 50 hours a 40 or 50 hours a 40 or 50 hours a week conscientiously. This is a week conscientiously. This is a week conscientiously. This is a statement on my statement on my statement on my part, but I want part, but I want part, but I want you and Mark to you and Mark to you and Mark to react to it in any way react to it in any way react to it in any way you like.

you like. you like. So, let me, So, let me, So, let me, let me let me let me answer quickly, because answer quickly, because answer quickly, because one of the things that we one of the things that we one of the things that we found, and so I, I'm found, and so I, I'm found, and so I, I'm reflecting on this reflecting on this reflecting on this massive massive massive research research research project that I, um, project that I, um, project that I, um, did with my did with my did with my friend and colleague friend and colleague friend and colleague Elaine Howard Eklund, Elaine Howard Eklund, Elaine Howard Eklund, and, um, we surveyed and, um, we surveyed and, um, we surveyed about 15,000 people. about 15,000 people. about 15,000 people. Sorry, we Sorry, we Sorry, we surveyed about surveyed about surveyed about 15,000 people and 15,000 people and 15,000 people and interviewed about interviewed about interviewed about 300. 15,000 interviews—that would be 300. 15,000 interviews—that would be too many anyway. Um, in too many anyway. Um, in collecting this data, collecting this data, collecting this data, we found that people we found that people we found that people talk about their talk about their talk about their work in one of two work in one of two work in one of two ways. They ways. They ways. They talked about it as talked about it as talked about it as , um, internally , um, internally , um, internally meaningful or meaningful or meaningful or externally meaningful. externally meaningful. externally meaningful. And by that I And by that I And by that I mean that external mean that external is when the work itself is when the work itself is when the work itself doesn't really doesn't really doesn't really matter, but the work matter, but the work matter, but the work allows you to do allows you to do allows you to do other things. So when you were other things. So when you were other things. So when you were making a making a making a long list of long list of long list of individualistic individualistic individualistic behaviors that behaviors that behaviors that people engage in earlier, people engage in earlier, people engage in earlier, you know, sharing you know, sharing you know, sharing the Gospel at work the Gospel at work the Gospel at work or using the or using the or using the money they money they money they get from their job get from their job get from their job to do something to do something to do something good for their good for their good for their church—those are all church—those are all church—those are all external things. You know, external things. You know, external things. You know, the work itself is not, so to the work itself is not, so to the work itself is not, so to speak, the essence of the speak, the essence of the speak, the essence of the content in this, and content in this, and content in this, and again, I don't want to again, I don't want to again, I don't want to downplay that. I downplay that. I downplay that. I think that external think that external think that external meaning is also meaning, meaning is also meaning, meaning is also meaning, but I think that when but I think that when but I think that when we ignore the we ignore the we ignore the internal meaning, the reason why internal meaning, the reason why internal meaning, the reason why work matters work matters work matters , that in , that in , that in the tasks that you the tasks that you the tasks that you do, it affects do, it affects do, it affects other people for the better, other people for the better, other people for the better, uh, we really uh, we really uh, we really miss out on a lot. And I miss out on a lot. And I miss out on a lot. And I often have people come to me often have people come to me often have people come to me asking, you know asking, you know , essentially saying, "I , essentially saying, "I , essentially saying, "I don't really know; don't really know; don't really know; I don't feel like I don't feel like I don't feel like my work is my work is my work is meaningful." And I, meaningful." And I, meaningful." And I, you know, I was giving a you know, I was giving a you know, I was giving a speech once, speech once, speech once, and at the end someone and at the end someone and at the end someone asked me, " asked me, " asked me, " What's the point of my What's the point of my What's the point of my work?" I said, "Well, work?" I said, "Well, work?" I said, "Well, what do you do?" And he what do you do?" And he what do you do?" And he turned out to be the vice turned out to be the vice president of the bank. And president of the bank. And president of the bank. And I thought, "Are you I thought, "Are you I thought, "Are you kidding?" You know, kidding?" You know, kidding?" You know, banks provide banks provide banks provide loans that loans that loans that allow companies

allow companies allow companies to exist and people to exist and people to buy houses. And to buy houses. And to buy houses. And these are really important, these are really important, these are really important, meaningful kinds of, kinds of, meaningful kinds of, kinds of, meaningful kinds of, kinds of, um, activities that, um, activities that, um, activities that, because of your work, because of your work, because of your work, can, um, can, um, can, um, happen in the world. happen in the world. So, of course, it's So, of course, it's meaningful. But I meaningful. But I meaningful. But I think people often think people often think people often don't think about what the don't think about what the meaning of their work is. And meaning of their work is. And so I think it's so I think it's so I think it's really helpful to really helpful to really helpful to help people help people help people stimulate that thinking a little bit stimulate that thinking a little bit stimulate that thinking a little bit . . Denise, do you think there's a Denise, do you think there's a connection between connection between people's lack of understanding that their work people's lack of understanding that their work is actually a blessing and what is actually a blessing and what is actually a blessing and what they hear on they hear on they hear on Sunday about how that Sunday about how that Sunday about how that work is being covered work is being covered ? Can you ? Can you ? Can you expand on this idea a little? expand on this idea a little? expand on this idea a little? Yes. So, in addition to Yes. So, in addition to Yes. So, in addition to talking to three talking to three talking to three hundred working hundred working hundred working people, people, people, we we we also talked to also talked to also talked to about 50 about 50 about 50 pastors in the course of this research. And we pastors in the course of this research. And we pastors in the course of this research. And we found that pastors found that pastors found that pastors assured us, "We are assured us, "We are assured us, "We are constantly talking constantly talking constantly talking about the work from the pulpit about the work from the pulpit about the work from the pulpit to our parishioners, to our parishioners, to our parishioners, etc." And when we etc." And when we etc." And when we asked the asked the asked the parishioners themselves, they parishioners themselves, they parishioners themselves, they said, "No, I don't said, "No, I don't said, "No, I don't think I've ever think I've ever think I've ever heard anyone heard anyone heard anyone talk about working from the talk about working from the talk about working from the pulpit." So pulpit." So pulpit." So there is clearly a gap between what there is clearly a gap between what there is clearly a gap between what people hear and what people hear and what people hear and what they think they think they think pastors are saying. And I in no pastors are saying. And I in no pastors are saying. And I in no way want to way want to way want to belittle pastors belittle pastors . In fact, I . In fact, I . In fact, I hope a large hope a large hope a large portion of your portion of your portion of your audience hears this.

audience hears this. audience hears this. But I really think But I really think But I really think pastors have the pastors have the pastors have the opportunity opportunity opportunity to think carefully about what to think carefully about what to think carefully about what they're saying and how it will be they're saying and how it will be they're saying and how it will be perceived by the people perceived by the people perceived by the people sitting in the pews. sitting in the pews. I think people often I think people often hear from their hear from their hear from their pastors, "It's important that pastors, "It's important that pastors, "It's important that you work, because you work, because you work, because then you can then you can then you can donate money to donate money to donate money to the church." Well, this is the church." Well, this is the church." Well, this is again a very again a very again a very external type of external type of external type of activity. And I think activity. And I think activity. And I think pastors often don't pastors often don't pastors often don't know what know what know what their their their parishioners are really doing. I parishioners are really doing. I parishioners are really doing. I mean, they might mean, they might mean, they might know the position, but what does know the position, but what does know the position, but what does that mean? What do these that mean? What do these that mean? What do these people actually people actually people actually do day in and do day in and do day in and day out? And I think there day out? And I think there day out? And I think there 's a gap here. There is 's a gap here. There is 's a gap here. There is a gap. And I think a gap. And I think a gap. And I think pastors are sometimes pastors are sometimes pastors are sometimes afraid to ask afraid to ask afraid to ask questions because they're afraid of questions because they're afraid of questions because they're afraid of seeming stupid. seeming stupid. seeming stupid. Meanwhile, parishioners Meanwhile, parishioners Meanwhile, parishioners say, "Oh, I really say, "Oh, I really say, "Oh, I really wish my pastor wish my pastor wish my pastor understood my understood my understood my daily work daily work daily work life better so I could life better so I could life better so I could get advice on how I get advice on how I get advice on how I can truly can truly can truly live my faith in a live my faith in a live my faith in a meaningful way at meaningful way at meaningful way at work." So I work." So I work." So I think there is a think there is a think there is a certain certain certain discrepancy or discrepancy or discrepancy or gap between these two gap between these two gap between these two groups. groups. groups. You know, I've been You know, I've been You know, I've been dealing with the topic of faith dealing with the topic of faith dealing with the topic of faith and work for a long time. So, hey, I'm and work for a long time. So, hey, I'm and work for a long time. So, hey, I'm one of those pastors one of those pastors one of those pastors who, in my own who, in my own who, in my own opinion, opinion, opinion, talks about this all the time. I talks about this all the time. I talks about this all the time. I remember the day I remember the day I remember the day I brought up working in a brought up working in a brought up working in a restaurant as an example, restaurant as an example, restaurant as an example, and a 50-year-old and a 50-year-old and a 50-year-old successful man successful man successful man came up to me with came up to me with came up to me with tears in his eyes. He tears in his eyes. He tears in his eyes. He said, "This is the first time in my said, "This is the first time in my said, "This is the first time in my life I've heard life I've heard life I've heard restaurant work restaurant work restaurant work mentioned in church."

mentioned in church." Thank you for noticing Thank you for noticing me, because everyone is always me, because everyone is always me, because everyone is always talking about talking about talking about military people, teachers, military people, teachers, military people, teachers, doctors, or scientists, doctors, or scientists, doctors, or scientists, and thank you for seeing and thank you for seeing and thank you for seeing me. Um, you say, and me. Um, you say, and me. Um, you say, and I agree with that. I think I agree with that. I think I agree with that. I think Mark would like to Mark would like to Mark would like to add something. I think he add something. I think he add something. I think he agrees too. It is important agrees too. It is important agrees too. It is important to visit people at to visit people at to visit people at their workplaces. their workplaces. I was on an I was on an assembly line with assembly line with assembly line with someone one day and I thought, “Oh, someone one day and I thought, “Oh, someone one day and I thought, “Oh, I’ve always heard about that. I’ve always heard about that. I’ve always heard about that. This is simply incredible. " This is simply incredible. " This is simply incredible. " This is not at all what I This is not at all what I This is not at all what I imagined." And then imagined." And then imagined." And then I got into the I got into the I got into the metalworking shop, metalworking shop, metalworking shop, you know, where huge you know, where huge you know, where huge machines crush and machines crush and machines crush and reshape reshape reshape metal. And you just metal. And you just learn so much. I'll say learn so much. I'll say one more thing, besides the fact one more thing, besides the fact one more thing, besides the fact that I learned a lot that I learned a lot that I learned a lot and got concrete and got concrete and got concrete examples. I was afraid of making a examples. I was afraid of making a examples. I was afraid of making a mistake in describing mistake in describing mistake in describing someone's work. So I someone's work. So I someone's work. So I gathered about 10 or 15 gathered about 10 or 15 gathered about 10 or 15 people at my church people at my church people at my church and said, “Hey, I want to and said, “Hey, I want to and said, “Hey, I want to use an example use an example use an example from your field. Please from your field. Please from your field. Please tell me tell me tell me where I went wrong." And you where I went wrong." And you where I went wrong." And you know, many know, many know, many were very kind and were very kind and were very kind and said, "No, you hit the said, "No, you hit the said, "No, you hit the bull's eye." But I bull's eye." But I bull's eye." But I would say that would say that would say that at least half the time at least half the time at least half the time they said, they said, they said, “That was great.

“That was great. “That was great. Thank you, Dane. But it's Thank you, Dane. But it's Thank you, Dane. But it's worth changing one worth changing one worth changing one detail so that we can detail so that we can detail so that we can trust you." They were trust you." They were trust you." They were very happy to do this very happy to do this very happy to do this and help not just me, but the and help not just me, but the and help not just me, but the entire church in this entire church in this entire church in this way. way. way. Yes. Dan, I Yes. Dan, I Yes. Dan, I like three things about what like three things about what like three things about what you just you just you just said. First, I said. First, I said. First, I like that you like that you like that you visit visit visit people's workplaces and people's workplaces and people's workplaces and find out what they find out what they find out what they do. I think this is an do. I think this is an do. I think this is an important signal that important signal that important signal that every every every person's work is valuable. person's work is valuable. Secondly, I Secondly, I Secondly, I like that you like that you like that you use these use these use these examples in your examples in your examples in your sermons. I think sermons. I think sermons. I think this is of great this is of great this is of great importance. And the example importance. And the example importance. And the example of the of the of the restaurant employee who was in restaurant employee who was in restaurant employee who was in tears, I think, tears, I think, tears, I think, illustrates this perfectly. And illustrates this perfectly. And illustrates this perfectly. And thirdly, the fact that you thirdly, the fact that you thirdly, the fact that you ask people to give ask people to give ask people to give feedback about feedback about feedback about errors. This allows errors. This allows errors. This allows you to stay you to stay you to stay humble and show humble and show humble and show others. Look, I don't others. Look, I don't others. Look, I don't know what know what know what everyone does, and that's okay. everyone does, and that's okay. everyone does, and that's okay. No one can know No one can know No one can know everything. Therefore, asking everything. Therefore, asking everything. Therefore, asking such questions and not such questions and not such questions and not feeling embarrassed feeling embarrassed is really is really is really extremely important. extremely important. So, Denise, if I'm a So, Denise, if I'm a busy pastor and I hear busy pastor and I hear that I need to that I need to that I need to meet with meet with meet with people at their people at their people at their workplaces, workplaces, workplaces, justify why that's a justify why that's a justify why that's a good idea. What is good idea. What is good idea. What is the advantage of such an the advantage of such an the advantage of such an activity, knowing activity, knowing activity, knowing that it will require that it will require that it will require time and energy? I time and energy? I time and energy? I feel a little feel a little feel a little insecure. Like, insecure. Like, insecure. Like, what, what's the victory?

what, what's the victory? what, what's the victory? Yes. I think we need to Yes. I think we need to Yes. I think we need to start thinking about what start thinking about what start thinking about what the purpose of the church is, the purpose of the church is, the purpose of the church is, right? And if the purpose of right? And if the purpose of right? And if the purpose of the church is to be the hands and the church is to be the hands and the church is to be the hands and feet of Jesus in the world, feet of Jesus in the world, feet of Jesus in the world, most of this most of this most of this happens not in the happens not in the happens not in the church building, but church building, but church building, but where people work. where people work. So, if you really So, if you really want a church want a church want a church to be effective, you have to to be effective, you have to to be effective, you have to know: What know: What know: What do people do all day? do people do all day? do people do all day? What are these classes? Who do What are these classes? Who do What are these classes? Who do they interact with? What they interact with? What they interact with? What opportunities do they have? opportunities do they have? opportunities do they have? So I think it's So I think it's really important to learn about your parishioners in this way really important to learn about your parishioners in this way , and also to , and also to , and also to help people help people help people make the connection between what the make the connection between what the make the connection between what the Scriptures say Scriptures say Scriptures say and what they do and what they do and what they do in their day job or in their day job or in their day job or night job, whatever that may night job, whatever that may night job, whatever that may be. Um, it be. Um, it be. Um, it really helps them really helps them really helps them understand and appreciate understand and appreciate understand and appreciate what my faith means what my faith means what my faith means to me in my to me in my to me in my daily life. daily life. daily life. It's not just "this It's not just "this It's not just "this Sunday I believe these Sunday I believe these Sunday I believe these things." I can things." I can things." I can intellectually intellectually intellectually agree with some agree with some agree with some truths about who truths about who truths about who God is, but how do I God is, but how do I God is, but how do I live my life? What does live my life? What does live my life? What does it look like? it look like? it look like? This is useful. Yes, Denise This is useful. Yes, Denise , this is truly valuable. And there are , this is truly valuable. And there are , this is truly valuable. And there are so many things, so many things, so many things, you know, in a good you know, in a good you know, in a good interview like this.

interview like this. interview like this. Thank you very much. I want to Thank you very much. I want to Thank you very much. I want to ask four ask four ask four questions at once. questions at once. questions at once. I want you to I want you to I want you to answer them all answer them all answer them all together. I just want to together. I just want to together. I just want to show you something from your show you something from your show you something from your latest book, latest book, Working for Working for Working for Better, page 34. Better, page 34. Better, page 34. Make sure you Make sure you Make sure you have had a chance have had a chance have had a chance to say everything you to say everything you to say everything you wanted to say. These are ways of wanted to say. These are ways of wanted to say. These are ways of understanding work. And I'll understanding work. And I'll understanding work. And I'll hold it up so Mark hold it up so Mark hold it up so Mark can see and our can see and our can see and our viewers can see. viewers can see. It looks like this , it's a table, there's , it's a table, there's , it's a table, there's outside work and inside outside work and inside outside work and inside work, but there's also, work, but there's also, work, but there's also, um, inside um, inside um, inside and outside the workplace. You've and outside the workplace. You've and outside the workplace. You've touched on this before, but could touched on this before, but could touched on this before, but could you you briefly elaborate briefly elaborate on it for the sake of people who are new to these ideas? What are the on it for the sake of people who are new to these ideas? What are the on it for the sake of people who are new to these ideas? What are the most important points most important points most important points you want people to you want people to you want people to hear? Yes. Thank you for hear? Yes. Thank you for hear? Yes. Thank you for showing this table, showing this table, showing this table, and as you said, there are and as you said, there are and as you said, there are two dimensions here. Um, one two dimensions here. Um, one two dimensions here. Um, one dimension is the intrinsic dimension is the intrinsic dimension is the intrinsic value of the work value of the work value of the work versus the versus the versus the extrinsic value. We extrinsic value. We extrinsic value. We talked about this a little bit, talked about this a little bit, talked about this a little bit, right? If the work right? If the work right? If the work you do is you do is you do is meaningful because of meaningful because of meaningful because of the tasks you the tasks you the tasks you complete or the complete or the complete or the products you products you products you create, that will be create, that will be create, that will be intrinsic value.

intrinsic value. intrinsic value. If the work of If the work of If the work of teaching teaching teaching first graders first graders first graders to read, for example, to read, for example, is intrinsically valuable. is intrinsically valuable. is intrinsically valuable. even if you don't have even if you don't have even if you don't have money to money to money to give. And work is give. And work is give. And work is extrinsically meaningful extrinsically meaningful extrinsically meaningful if the context of the work if the context of the work if the context of the work or the work itself or the work itself or the work itself allows you to do allows you to do allows you to do something that is meaningful, something that is meaningful, something that is meaningful, but it is not the work itself. but it is not the work itself. but it is not the work itself. So I'll give you a So I'll give you a So I'll give you a quick example. In quick example. In quick example. In one of our one of our one of our interviews, there was a interviews, there was a interviews, there was a hotel maid hotel maid hotel maid who was talking about… who was talking about… and I actually did and I actually did and I actually did n't do the interview n't do the interview n't do the interview because this woman because this woman because this woman spoke spoke spoke Spanish and we Spanish and we Spanish and we had someone had someone had someone do the interview in do the interview in do the interview in Spanish, so I was Spanish, so I was Spanish, so I was reading the translated reading the translated reading the translated transcript of the transcript of the transcript of the interview and she interview and she interview and she was saying that her work was saying that her work was saying that her work made sense. And I expected made sense. And I expected her to say something her to say something her to say something like, "My like, "My like, "My job makes sense job makes sense job makes sense because as a because as a because as a hotel maid, I can make the hotel maid, I can make the hotel maid, I can make the rooms really rooms really rooms really nice and clean nice and clean nice and clean for people, and when for people, and when for people, and when travelers are tired travelers are tired , they can , they can , they can rest in a nice rest in a nice rest in a nice place." That would be a very place." That would be a very place." That would be a very internal way of internal way of internal way of talking about her talking about her talking about her work. She didn't work. She didn't work. She didn't talk about her talk about her talk about her work internally. work internally. work internally. She spoke of her She spoke of her She spoke of her externally. And she externally. And she externally. And she said, "My job said, "My job said, "My job is meaningful because with the is meaningful because with the is meaningful because with the money I earn, money I earn, money I earn, I can buy I can buy I can buy shoes for my children, and God wants shoes for my children, and God wants shoes for my children, and God wants my children to have my children to have my children to have shoes." And I was shoes." And I was shoes." And I was almost ashamed to almost ashamed to almost ashamed to read that, because of course read that, because of course read that, because of course God wants her God wants her God wants her children to have shoes, and children to have shoes, and children to have shoes, and of course that's what her work is all about of course that's what her work is all about of course that's what her work is all about . And I . And I . And I was so was so was so focused on the focused on the focused on the inside inside inside that I almost lost that I almost lost that I almost lost sight of the importance sight of the importance sight of the importance and value of the and value of the and value of the outside. So outside. So outside. So both of them are both of them are both of them are important. And the other important. And the other important. And the other dimension, as you mentioned, dimension, as you mentioned, dimension, as you mentioned, is inside and outside the is inside and outside the workplace. So, is your workplace. So, is your work meaningful work meaningful work meaningful because of who you because of who you because of who you interact with in the interact with in the interact with in the workplace, or is workplace, or is workplace, or is it meaningful because of it meaningful because of what your work what your work what your work does outside of the does outside of the does outside of the workplace? So, the example

workplace? So, the example workplace? So, the example with the hotel maid would be with the hotel maid would be with the hotel maid would be external and outside the external and outside the workplace. You can workplace. You can think of an extrovert think of an extrovert think of an extrovert in the workplace as in the workplace as in the workplace as someone who someone who someone who connects with connects with connects with colleagues and shares their colleagues and shares their colleagues and shares their faith with them or faith with them or faith with them or supports them in some supports them in some supports them in some meaningful way. And meaningful way. And meaningful way. And the internal in the the internal in the the internal in the workplace can workplace can workplace can be inside you. be inside you. be inside you. So you feel like So you feel like So you feel like this is a good this is a good this is a good use of your use of your use of your talents and skills. talents and skills. talents and skills. The work itself is The work itself is The work itself is meaningful, and beyond the meaningful, and beyond the workplace are the goods and workplace are the goods and services you services you services you create that create that create that contribute to the world contribute to the world contribute to the world in a meaningful way. We in a meaningful way. We in a meaningful way. We talked to this talked to this talked to this guy who guy who guy who worked at a worked at a worked at a Subway restaurant, and he said, “Oh Subway restaurant, and he said, “Oh Subway restaurant, and he said, “Oh yeah, my job is very yeah, my job is very yeah, my job is very meaningful. "In fact, I meaningful. "In fact, I meaningful. "In fact, I think about it when I think about it when I think about it when I think about the Gospel and think about the Gospel and think about the Gospel and what God what God what God has called me to do as I has called me to do as I has called me to do as I do my work." do my work." do my work." And I'm thinking, "Seriously, And I'm thinking, "Seriously, And I'm thinking, "Seriously, Subway?" And he's like, "Yeah Subway?" And he's like, "Yeah , because what I , because what I , because what I do, I, uh, what do, I, uh, what do, I, uh, what Subway does is Subway does is Subway does is healthy food, and we healthy food, and we healthy food, and we work all over the work all over the work all over the world in places where world in places where world in places where healthy food isn't always healthy food isn't always healthy food isn't always available, and we available, and we available, and we feed the world in such a feed the world in such a feed the world in such a really meaningful really meaningful really meaningful way through this, way through this, way through this, through this, uh, through this, uh, through this, uh, company that I company that I company that I work for." And I thought, " work for." And I thought, " Wow, that's actually a Wow, that's actually a Wow, that's actually a pretty cool way to pretty cool way to pretty cool way to think about this work think about this work think about this work as a contribution to, uh, the as a contribution to, uh, the as a contribution to, uh, the greater good in the greater good in the greater good in the world." it's very world." it's very world." it's very internal, but also internal, but also internal, but also , you know, it's not , you know, it's not , you know, it's not just in the restaurant, just in the restaurant, just in the restaurant, it's that these people are it's that these people are it's that these people are now going out into the world now going out into the world because they have because they have because they have access to healthy access to healthy access to healthy nutritious food.

nutritious food. nutritious food. Yes. So, Denise, Yes. So, Denise, Yes. So, Denise, teaching teaching teaching college students, you know, at college students, you know, at college students, you know, at Wheaton, at Wheaton Wheaton, at Wheaton Wheaton, at Wheaton College, my experience College, my experience College, my experience with the current with the current with the current generation, generation, generation, going back to the going back to the generational conversation, is to generational conversation, is to raise in the minds of raise in the minds of raise in the minds of some of them, or some of them, or some of them, or maybe many, maybe many, maybe many, if not most of if not most of if not most of them, that this has to be them, that this has to be them, that this has to be internal and in the internal and in the internal and in the workplace; this is workplace; this is workplace; this is real work, as real work, as real work, as something that has clear something that has clear something that has clear value and I value and I value and I can actually can actually can actually do it in the market, it's the do it in the market, it's the do it in the market, it's the highest kind of work, highest kind of work, highest kind of work, and other kinds of work and other kinds of work and other kinds of work might be seen might be seen might be seen as maybe not as maybe not as maybe not real, not real real, not real real, not real work, or not very work, or not very work, or not very valuable. Is this, or has this been valuable. Is this, or has this been valuable. Is this, or has this been your experience as well, or is your experience as well, or is your experience as well, or is this perhaps just my this perhaps just my this perhaps just my limited experience with this limited experience with this limited experience with this kind of thinking? kind of thinking? kind of thinking? I think that's true, and so yes I think that's true, and so yes I think that's true, and so yes , I really , I really , I really think so, and part of think so, and part of think so, and part of it is, uh, kind of a it is, uh, kind of a it is, uh, kind of a developmental stage developmental stage developmental stage where most where most where most college students in the college students in the college students in the age age age range that range that range that they're in tend to be they're in tend to be they're in tend to be a little bit self-centered a little bit self-centered a little bit self-centered , like, what does , like, what does , like, what does God want me to do? God want me to do? God want me to do? What is my calling What is my calling ? What should I do? ? What should I do? ? What should I do? what skills do I have and what skills do I have and what skills do I have and how can I how can I how can I use them in a use them in a use them in a meaningful way.

meaningful way. meaningful way. Again, I don't Again, I don't Again, I don't want to downplay this. want to downplay this. want to downplay this. I think this is a very I think this is a very I think this is a very important and good important and good important and good question. But this is not a question. But this is not a question. But this is not a complete question. So complete question. So , I, I think, besides that, it's , I, I think, besides that, it's , I, I think, besides that, it's important how what I important how what I important how what I do affects do affects do affects other people for the better. other people for the better. other people for the better. How what I do, uh, How what I do, uh, How what I do, uh, contributes to God's purposes in contributes to God's purposes in contributes to God's purposes in many other many other many other ways. So, yeah, I ways. So, yeah, I ways. So, yeah, I really think there's an really think there's an really think there's an element where they, element where they, element where they, they tend to be they tend to be they tend to be a little short-sighted. a little short-sighted. a little short-sighted. College students. Uh, College students. Uh, College students. Uh, and that's fine and and that's fine and and that's fine and dandy, and, you know, time dandy, and, you know, time dandy, and, you know, time will allow them will allow them will allow them to broaden that to broaden that to broaden that perspective a little bit. perspective a little bit. perspective a little bit. This is useful. This is useful. This is useful. And I think we can, uh And I think we can, uh , we, how do you want to , we, how do you want to , we, how do you want to put it? As we put it? As we put it? As we get a little get a little get a little older, we see older, we see older, we see the value, for example, the value, for example, the value, for example, in talking to a carpenter in talking to a carpenter , perhaps someone who , perhaps someone who , perhaps someone who makes cabinets, makes cabinets, makes cabinets, tables, or chairs. I tables, or chairs. I tables, or chairs. I mean, a mean, a mean, a good table or good table or good table or chair can chair can chair can last two or last two or last two or three hundred years. And you three hundred years. And you three hundred years. And you know, you serve not know, you serve not know, you serve not only by only by only by creating beautiful creating beautiful creating beautiful things with your own hands. things with your own hands. things with your own hands. After all, there may be people After all, there may be people who will use them who will use them literally a literally a century from now. Let's talk century from now. Let's talk century from now. Let's talk about the external aspect, about the external aspect, about the external aspect, about the outside world, about the outside world, about the outside world, serving the common serving the common serving the common good, which is one of the good, which is one of the good, which is one of the themes of your book that I themes of your book that I themes of your book that I want to want to want to mention again. " mention again. " Working for the Working for the Working for the Better" came out Better" came out Better" came out about a year ago, and there about a year ago, and there about a year ago, and there is a lot of value in this area is a lot of value in this area is a lot of value in this area . Perhaps . Perhaps somewhat in somewhat in somewhat in opposition to opposition to opposition to your last your last your last point. Some people point. Some people point. Some people think we are very think we are very think we are very grateful that we have grateful that we have grateful that we have broken down—and you broken down—and you broken down—and you are trying to are trying to are trying to do this, and you do this in do this, and you do this in do this, and you do this in your book—the division between the your book—the division between the your book—the division between the sacred and the secular. A sacred and the secular. A sacred and the secular. A pastor truly pastor truly pastor truly serves God, a serves God, a serves God, a missionary serves missionary serves missionary serves God, and so on. And, of course,

God, and so on. And, of course, God, and so on. And, of course, doctors too, and teachers, doctors too, and teachers, doctors too, and teachers, but, say, a but, say, a but, say, a garbage truck driver—forget garbage truck driver—forget garbage truck driver—forget about it, it's a secular about it, it's a secular about it, it's a secular job, and marketing the job, and marketing the job, and marketing the latest IT latest IT product—it's completely product—it's completely product—it's completely secular. So, we are secular. So, we are secular. So, we are fighting this. Anything fighting this. Anything fighting this. Anything that is truly good that is truly good that is truly good work, that is honest and work, that is honest and work, that is honest and develops people, develops people, develops people, is in a way is in a way is in a way sacred. But now sacred. But now sacred. But now there is a certain there is a certain there is a certain opposition that goes like this opposition that goes like this opposition that goes like this : “You theologians—and I : “You theologians—and I : “You theologians—and I will call you a theologian, will call you a theologian, will call you a theologian, at least unofficially at least unofficially —you are so eager —you are so eager —you are so eager to destroy the division between the to destroy the division between the to destroy the division between the sacred and the secular.” sacred and the secular.” Nobody wants Nobody wants to be a pastor anymore. We have to be a pastor anymore. We have leveled everything so much that no leveled everything so much that no one has the feeling: one has the feeling: one has the feeling: "I am ready to give "I am ready to give "I am ready to give three years of my life three years of my life three years of my life to study theology to study theology to study theology and go into this field, where and go into this field, where and go into this field, where the pay may the pay may the pay may not be high and the schedule may not be high and the schedule may not be standardized." not be standardized." Maybe you want Maybe you want to help us a little to help us a little to help us a little with this? with this? with this? Well, I'll tell you that I'm Well, I'll tell you that I'm Well, I'll tell you that I'm halfway through, halfway through, halfway through, a little more than a little more than a little more than halfway through, my halfway through, my halfway through, my master's degree master's degree master's degree program in biblical program in biblical program in biblical and theological and theological and theological studies at studies at studies at Wheaton College. Because I Wheaton College. Because I Wheaton College. Because I think it's very important to think it's very important to think it's very important to understand and study the understand and study the understand and study the theological foundation theological foundation theological foundation for doing the for doing the for doing the work that we do.

work that we do. work that we do. I already have a I already have a I already have a PhD, so I don't PhD, so I don't PhD, so I don't necessarily need necessarily need necessarily need this master's this master's this master's degree. But degree. But degree. But we're talking to we're talking to we're talking to Dr. Denise Dr. Denise Dr. Denise Daniels, Daniels, but I really think the but I really think the theological theological theological foundation is important. foundation is important. foundation is important. And I am currently studying in And I am currently studying in And I am currently studying in groups with those people groups with those people who are preparing for a who are preparing for a who are preparing for a certain career in purely certain career in purely certain career in purely Christian Christian Christian ministry. And I'm so ministry. And I'm so ministry. And I'm so grateful for the people who grateful for the people who grateful for the people who want to do this and want to do this and want to do this and whose calling is to whose calling is to do this. Because, do this. Because, do this. Because, going back to the going back to the going back to the body metaphor that body metaphor that body metaphor that Paul gives us, Paul gives us, Paul gives us, all types are needed, all types are needed, all types are needed, right? We need right? We need right? We need garbage collectors, we need garbage collectors, we need garbage collectors, we need pastors, and maybe pastors, and maybe pastors, and maybe even those even those even those marketing people. You know, marketing people. You know, marketing people. You know, all of these people have all of these people have all of these people have ways to ways to ways to contribute, contribute, contribute, using their using their using their skills and talents skills and talents skills and talents to bring about the coming of the to bring about the coming of the to bring about the coming of the Kingdom of God in this Kingdom of God in this Kingdom of God in this world. Denise, I world. Denise, I world. Denise, I wonder if, wonder if, wonder if, thinking about your thinking about your thinking about your system, because system, because system, because pastors usually pastors usually pastors usually live in an live in an live in an internal, internal, internal, work space, isn't it possible work space, isn't it possible work space, isn't it possible that that that people in our churches people in our churches people in our churches don't even hear about the don't even hear about the don't even hear about the external, non-work, external, non-work, external, non-work, as a category? And your as a category? And your as a category? And your structure makes structure makes structure makes me think that we me think that we me think that we may be inadvertently may be inadvertently may be inadvertently elevating the inner elevating the inner elevating the inner as something that is most important as something that is most important as something that is most important from a spiritual perspective from a spiritual perspective .

. That's a great question. That's a great question. I wonder if I wonder if visiting visiting workplaces would help pastors see things workplaces would help pastors see things beyond their work, beyond their work, right? That is, if right? That is, if right? That is, if their workplace is the their workplace is the their workplace is the church, then what is the point of church, then what is the point of church, then what is the point of their work? Does their work? Does their work? Does it consist in the extent it consist in the extent it consist in the extent to which God's purposes to which God's purposes to which God's purposes are realized outside the are realized outside the are realized outside the church itself? church itself? church itself? And how does this happen And how does this happen And how does this happen when they when they when they interact with people interact with people interact with people in other contexts? in other contexts? in other contexts? I like this I like this I like this answer. This is a good answer. This is a good answer. This is a good challenge. Can I challenge. Can I challenge. Can I move on to another topic move on to another topic that comes up in that comes up in that comes up in several of your books? several of your books? several of your books? This may be even more This may be even more This may be even more interesting to Mark than to interesting to Mark than to interesting to Mark than to me, but since I me, but since I me, but since I prepared this question prepared this question prepared this question , I will , I will , I will ask it and he can ask it and he can ask it and he can add to it. So your add to it. So your add to it. So your job is...I would say, job is...I would say, job is...I would say, gently nudging gently nudging gently nudging people in a certain people in a certain people in a certain direction. I think it direction. I think it direction. I think it constructively constructively constructively pushes people. And pushes people. And you specifically touch on the you specifically touch on the topic several times that Christians topic several times that Christians topic several times that Christians can sometimes can sometimes can sometimes exaggerate the idea that exaggerate the idea that exaggerate the idea that they are they are they are being persecuted or being persecuted or being persecuted or silenced in the silenced in the silenced in the workplace. You workplace. You workplace. You have done serious have done serious have done serious research on this research on this research on this issue and do not issue and do not issue and do not deny that this deny that this deny that this sometimes happens, and sometimes happens, and sometimes happens, and that Christians are indeed that Christians are indeed that Christians are indeed sometimes forced to remain sometimes forced to remain sometimes forced to remain silent. But you silent. But you silent. But you point out that in point out that in point out that in many parts of many parts of many parts of Western culture, Western culture, Western culture, Christians still Christians still Christians still hold a hold a hold a privileged privileged privileged position. And position. And position. And in fact, if in fact, if in fact, if Christian business Christian business leaders are not leaders are not leaders are not careful, they careful, they careful, they can make can make Muslims, Hindus, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, and atheists, and atheists, and agnostics uncomfortable, making agnostics uncomfortable, making agnostics uncomfortable, making them feel like them feel like them feel like they have to keep they have to keep they have to keep quiet, to which someone quiet, to which someone quiet, to which someone might say, "Oh, might say, "Oh, might say, "Oh, okay." "Let them be silent

okay." "Let them be silent ." But I think if we ." But I think if we ." But I think if we really want to really want to really want to love the people around love the people around love the people around us, we want us, we want us, we want them to be able to them to be able to them to be able to express their express their express their views, and maybe views, and maybe views, and maybe that would be the that would be the that would be the most effective most effective most effective way to evangelize way to evangelize , if that's your goal at all , if that's your goal at all , if that's your goal at all . Um, but you . Um, but you . Um, but you take a position that take a position that take a position that could be called could be called could be called principled principled principled pluralism. And I would pluralism. And I would pluralism. And I would really like you to really like you to really like you to say a few words about this say a few words about this say a few words about this . And I want . And I want . And I want Mark to be free to Mark to be free to Mark to be free to add his own, because as add his own, because as add his own, because as president of the president of the Evangelical Evangelical Evangelical Coalition, of course we are Coalition, of course we are Coalition, of course we are focused on focused on focused on North America, North America, North America, but there but there but there are chapters of the coalition all over the are chapters of the coalition all over the are chapters of the coalition all over the world, and there are definitely world, and there are definitely world, and there are definitely Christians there who are Christians there who are Christians there who are absolutely absolutely absolutely persecuted. But persecuted. But persecuted. But you start, and Mark you start, and Mark you start, and Mark might want to might want to might want to add something. add something. add something. Yes. So, I guess I'll Yes. So, I guess I'll Yes. So, I guess I'll say two things pretty say two things pretty say two things pretty quickly. Um, first of all, quickly. Um, first of all, quickly. Um, first of all, our data shows our data shows our data shows that Christians, and that Christians, and that Christians, and specifically evangelical specifically evangelical specifically evangelical Christians in Christians in Christians in North America, North America, North America, report report report incidents of religious incidents of religious incidents of religious discrimination in the discrimination in the discrimination in the workplace workplace workplace about 30% of the about 30% of the time. In other time. In other time. In other words, 30% of our words, 30% of our words, 30% of our respondents said respondents said : “Yes, I : “Yes, I : “Yes, I have faced have faced have faced discrimination at some point because of discrimination at some point because of discrimination at some point because of my evangelical my evangelical my evangelical Christian faith.” Christian faith.” Christian faith.” Um, compare that, Um, compare that, Um, compare that, however, to Jewish however, to Jewish however, to Jewish and Muslim and Muslim and Muslim respondents, whose respondents, whose respondents, whose rates were rates were rates were twice as high. So twice as high. So twice as high. So about 60% of those about 60% of those about 60% of those respondents said, respondents said, "Hey, I've been "Hey, I've been "Hey, I've been discriminated against at discriminated against at discriminated against at work, and I haven't work, and I haven't work, and I haven't gotten a job or gotten a job or gotten a job or I've been fired, I I've been fired, I I've been fired, I think, because of my think, because of my think, because of my religious religious religious identity." And so identity." And so identity." And so we argue, you're right, we argue, you're right, we argue, you're right, that there is a problem with that there is a problem with that there is a problem with discrimination, but discrimination, but discrimination, but the issue of the issue of the issue of discrimination discrimination discrimination is actually more is actually more is actually more prominent or more prominent or more prominent or more problematic among what problematic among what problematic among what we we we call minority call minority call minority religions in the United States. Um, and religions in the United States. Um, and religions in the United States. Um, and that brings us to that brings us to that brings us to that second question that second question that second question or that second or that second or that second point, which is this

point, which is this point, which is this notion of principled notion of principled notion of principled pluralism, which is pluralism, which is pluralism, which is our recommendation our recommendation our recommendation for how we for how we for how we interact with people interact with people interact with people who have different who have different who have different religious religious religious beliefs. And I want to beliefs. And I want to beliefs. And I want to make sure that this make sure that this make sure that this doesn't come across as doesn't come across as doesn't come across as some kind of this some kind of this some kind of this vague vague vague sentimentalism, sentimentalism, sentimentalism, like, we can all like, we can all like, we can all be kind to each be kind to each be kind to each other, and everyone has other, and everyone has other, and everyone has some beliefs, and some beliefs, and some beliefs, and that's fine. This is not what that's fine. This is not what that's fine. This is not what principled principled principled pluralism is. It pluralism is. It pluralism is. It starts with " starts with " principle," which is the principle," which is the principle," which is the idea by which idea by which idea by which you understand your you understand your you understand your faith. You know what it is faith. You know what it is faith. You know what it is . You believe in it and . You believe in it and . You believe in it and can speak clearly about it can speak clearly about it can speak clearly about it . So it . So it . So it starts with a starts with a starts with a principled principled principled component, but component, but component, but understands that we live understands that we live understands that we live in a context that is in a context that is in a context that is pluralistic, and we pluralistic, and we pluralistic, and we encounter people encounter people encounter people who come with who come with who come with their own very their own very their own very strong, sometimes, um, strong, sometimes, um, strong, sometimes, um, opinions, ideas, and opinions, ideas, and opinions, ideas, and ideals about, ideals about, ideals about, you know, what is true you know, what is true you know, what is true about, you know, about...what about, you know, about...what about, you know, about...what is invisible, and, um, is invisible, and, um, is invisible, and, um, also about the ways in also about the ways in also about the ways in which they should live which they should live . Our concept is a . Our concept is a . Our concept is a principled principled principled pluralistic pluralistic pluralistic approach that says that approach that says that approach that says that we first see the we first see the we first see the image of God in every person image of God in every person image of God in every person . And once we . And once we . And once we start from this start from this start from this foundation, if we foundation, if we foundation, if we can recognize can recognize can recognize each other as each other as each other as image bearers of God, the image bearers of God, the image bearers of God, the next question is: how do next question is: how do next question is: how do we interact with we interact with we interact with image bearers of image bearers of image bearers of God? Well, we God? Well, we God? Well, we treat them with treat them with treat them with dignity and respect, dignity and respect, dignity and respect, and maybe it's worth and maybe it's worth and maybe it's worth trying to understand trying to understand trying to understand their point of view. And this their point of view. And this their point of view. And this approach to understanding doesn't approach to understanding doesn't approach to understanding doesn't mean that, you know, mean that, you know, mean that, you know, all truths are the same, all truths are the same, all truths are the same, or all beliefs are the or all beliefs are the or all beliefs are the same, or all same, or all same, or all beliefs are beliefs are beliefs are true, or anything like true, or anything like true, or anything like that. But this approach is about

that. But this approach is about truly truly listening fully and listening fully and listening fully and understanding that person understanding that person understanding that person as a bearer of the image of as a bearer of the image of as a bearer of the image of God and opening up God and opening up God and opening up the possibility for a the possibility for a the possibility for a relationship. Which could relationship. Which could relationship. Which could lead to a conversation lead to a conversation lead to a conversation that could ultimately that could ultimately that could ultimately lead to lead to lead to salvation. But this is not the salvation. But this is not the salvation. But this is not the immediate goal of immediate goal of immediate goal of principled principled principled pluralism. You pluralism. You pluralism. You are not listening are not listening are not listening to convert. You to convert. You to convert. You listen to listen to listen to treat the treat the treat the image bearer of God with image bearer of God with image bearer of God with dignity and respect, dignity and respect, dignity and respect, and to treat them and to treat them and to treat them as you would want to be treated as you would want to be treated as you would want to be treated . . . And so, you know, this And so, you know, this And so, you know, this brings us back to brings us back to brings us back to Jesus' call to love Jesus' call to love Jesus' call to love your neighbor as your neighbor as your neighbor as yourself. So, who are yourself. So, who are yourself. So, who are these neighbors we these neighbors we these neighbors we may encounter in the may encounter in the may encounter in the workplace, and how should workplace, and how should workplace, and how should we interact with we interact with we interact with them? them? them? Denise, do you think there is a Denise, do you think there is a Denise, do you think there is a particular particular particular strategy that is unique strategy that is unique strategy that is unique in light of in light of in light of principled principled principled pluralism for pluralism for pluralism for evangelism? evangelism? evangelism? I think you have to I think you have to I think you have to start with understanding. And start with understanding. And start with understanding. And I believe it all I believe it all I believe it all starts with starts with starts with trying to understand the trying to understand the trying to understand the other and inviting other and inviting other and inviting them to understand you. And them to understand you. And them to understand you. And because questions because questions because questions naturally naturally naturally arise during arise during arise during this interaction, I this interaction, I this interaction, I think it can think it can think it can lead to an lead to an lead to an opportunity for opportunity for opportunity for evangelism. But I evangelism. But I evangelism. But I also think that if also think that if also think that if you start by saying, you start by saying, you start by saying, "My goal is "My goal is to evangelize," it to evangelize," it to evangelize," it will be perceived by the other will be perceived by the other will be perceived by the other party as disrespectful, party as disrespectful, party as disrespectful, no more and no less no more and no less no more and no less than if we wanted a than if we wanted a than if we wanted a Muslim to Muslim to Muslim to come up to us and come up to us and come up to us and say, "You must say, "You must say, "You must acknowledge that there is one God acknowledge that there is one God , and Allah is His prophet , and Allah is His prophet ." I, you know, I'm not ." I, you know, I'm not ." I, you know, I'm not going to going to going to endorse that endorse that endorse that statement, but I statement, but I statement, but I want to understand why want to understand why want to understand why this person might have this person might have this person might have these beliefs and these beliefs and these beliefs and understand who they understand who they understand who they believe Jesus is. And

believe Jesus is. And believe Jesus is. And we can have we can have we can have interesting interesting interesting conversations about these things. So I think conversations about these things. So I think conversations about these things. So I think having an inquisitive having an inquisitive having an inquisitive mindset that mindset that mindset that respects the other person and respects the other person and respects the other person and truly treats truly treats truly treats them with dignity is an them with dignity is an them with dignity is an approach I would approach I would approach I would recommend. Denise, recommend. Denise, recommend. Denise, we're almost at the we're almost at the we're almost at the end, so let's move on end, so let's move on end, so let's move on to the blitz questions. I have to the blitz questions. I have to the blitz questions. I have four for you. I'm not four for you. I'm not four for you. I'm not sure how many sure how many sure how many Mark has, but, um, I'm Mark has, but, um, I'm Mark has, but, um, I'm going to...I'm going to going to...I'm going to going to...I'm going to beep if beep if ...imagine you're in a ...imagine you're in a ...imagine you're in a slow elevator, slow elevator, slow elevator, you know, seven floors up. you know, seven floors up. You tend You tend to collaborate with to collaborate with to collaborate with women. You are a woman in the women. You are a woman in the women. You are a woman in the workplace in a workplace in a workplace in a leadership position. What leadership position. What leadership position. What advice would you give to my advice would you give to my advice would you give to my daughters, who are now daughters, who are now daughters, who are now somewhere in their 40s or 35s, somewhere in their 40s or 35s, somewhere in their 40s or 35s, or to Mark's daughter, I don't or to Mark's daughter, I don't or to Mark's daughter, I don't know how know how know how old she is. Let's say she's 32 and old she is. Let's say she's 32 and old she is. Let's say she's 32 and she's starting to she's starting to she's starting to take on management take on management take on management positions. You mentioned a positions. You mentioned a positions. You mentioned a marine biologist marine biologist marine biologist named Krista. How would you... named Krista. How would you... she's kind of an she's kind of an she's kind of an example of how to example of how to example of how to do things well, in do things well, in do things well, in one of your books. What one of your books. What one of your books. What would you say to a woman would you say to a woman would you say to a woman who is starting to take on who is starting to take on who is starting to take on leadership positions at leadership positions at leadership positions at work, starting to work, starting to work, starting to gain some gain some gain some power, some influence?

power, some influence? Yes. So, that's a very Yes. So, that's a very difficult question difficult question difficult question to answer in to answer in to answer in just seven just seven just seven elevator floors, but I elevator floors, but I elevator floors, but I think mine... think mine... think mine... Okay, you can have Okay, you can have Okay, you can have 14 floors. 14 floors. 14 floors. My strong My strong My strong recommendation is recommendation is to realize the power to realize the power to realize the power you have and you have and you have and use it use it use it to support others, to support others, to support others, men and women. men and women. But in particular, But in particular, notice systems notice systems notice systems that may be that may be that may be more difficult for more difficult for more difficult for women for many women for many women for many reasons: due to family reasons: due to family reasons: due to family challenges or something else, challenges or something else, challenges or something else, and work to and work to and work to make those make those make those systems as systems as systems as fair and fair and fair and convenient as possible for those convenient as possible for those convenient as possible for those you have power over. you have power over. Okay, that was the first. Okay, that was the first. Perfectly. Thank you, Mark. Perfectly. Thank you, Mark. Perfectly. Thank you, Mark. I'll cross out my I'll cross out my I'll cross out my second point so you can second point so you can ask your ask your probably great probably great probably great quick question. quick question. quick question. Come on, Mark. Come on, Mark. Come on, Mark. It's because I'm taking too It's because I'm taking too It's because I'm taking too long to answer, long to answer, long to answer, right? right? right? No, no, you're No, no, you're No, no, you're doing great. I...I...I'll doing great. I...I...I'll doing great. I...I...I'll keep mine simple. keep mine simple. keep mine simple. Denise, fill in Denise, fill in Denise, fill in the blank. For a pastor to the blank. For a pastor to the blank. For a pastor to better better better apply faith apply faith apply faith and work in the church, and work in the church, and work in the church, he needs...

he needs... Yes. He needs to Yes. He needs to know his parishioners know his parishioners know his parishioners and what they and what they and what they do. do. do. Good. Okay. Wow. We Good. Okay. Wow. We Good. Okay. Wow. We are moving very are moving very are moving very quickly. Okay. Number quickly. Okay. Number quickly. Okay. Number three. What brings you three. What brings you three. What brings you the most joy in your the most joy in your the most joy in your work? I think there are work? I think there are work? I think there are two things right now that I two things right now that I two things right now that I really, really really, really really, really like. The first like. The first is my colleagues. I really is my colleagues. I really is my colleagues. I really love the people love the people love the people I get to I get to I get to work with and the conversations work with and the conversations work with and the conversations we have, and I also we have, and I also we have, and I also love my love my love my students, the questions students, the questions students, the questions they they they come with, and the life that come with, and the life that come with, and the life that awaits them ahead awaits them ahead , the life they are , the life they are , the life they are orienting themselves towards. orienting themselves towards. orienting themselves towards. Okay, ready? That was Okay, ready? That was Okay, ready? That was very good. I might very good. I might even have time to even have time to even have time to put two more, and put two more, and put two more, and Mark one more. What would you Mark one more. What would you Mark one more. What would you say if someone say if someone say if someone said, "Dr. said, "Dr. said, "Dr. Daniels, I'm so Daniels, I'm so Daniels, I'm so impressed with your impressed with your impressed with your work, your work, your work, your research, all research, all research, all these interviews and these interviews and these interviews and surveys." How do I surveys." How do I surveys." How do I do this? Tell me, do this? Tell me, do this? Tell me, tell me how to start. tell me how to start. tell me how to start. Oh, how about me? Oh, how about me? Oh, how about me? How, how, how do I How, how, how do I How, how, how do I start start research, whether in research, whether in your field or your field or your field or some other? Yes, I do some other? Yes, I do some other? Yes, I do think it's think it's think it's important to get important to get important to get proper proper proper methodological methodological methodological training, and the training, and the training, and the best way to best way to best way to do that is to get a do that is to get a do that is to get a PhD in any PhD in any PhD in any field of social field of social field of social science, which will give you the science, which will give you the science, which will give you the training you training you training you need to need to need to conduct qualitative conduct qualitative conduct qualitative surveys and interviews surveys and interviews .

. . Yes. Mark, you have one more thing Yes. Mark, you have one more thing Yes. Mark, you have one more thing . That's it. Yes. . That's it. Yes. . That's it. Yes. So, fast- So, fast- So, fast- forward 10 years: what do you forward 10 years: what do you forward 10 years: what do you think think think will be the main issues at the will be the main issues at the will be the main issues at the center of the discussion about center of the discussion about center of the discussion about faith and work, if faith and work, if faith and work, if you can you can you can predict? predict? predict? Oh, wow. That's a great Oh, wow. That's a great Oh, wow. That's a great question. Um, question. Um, question. Um, that means she doesn't that means she doesn't that means she doesn't know the answer, and that's know the answer, and that's know the answer, and that's true. I don't know. That's true. I don't know. That's true. I don't know. That's why I ask. I ask why I ask. I ask why I ask. I ask you to try to you to try to you to try to guess. guess. guess. I think, I think, question. I think, I think, question. I think, I think, question. Well, I have to say, Well, I have to say, Well, I have to say, looking back on the looking back on the looking back on the last 20 years of last 20 years of last 20 years of discussions about faith and discussions about faith and discussions about faith and work, I thought work, I thought work, I thought we would have moved on by now we would have moved on by now we would have moved on by now . I thought that . I thought that . I thought that the recognition that the recognition that the recognition that everyday work matters everyday work matters everyday work matters would be would be would be more deeply rooted and more deeply rooted and more deeply rooted and accepted. And I accepted. And I accepted. And I feel like this feel like this feel like this message is message is message is spreading, but not spreading, but not spreading, but not as deeply as I would as deeply as I would as deeply as I would like. So I like. So I like. So I hope that in hope that in hope that in 10 years, everyone, every 10 years, everyone, every 10 years, everyone, every Christian church, Christian church, Christian church, will recognize that this is an important will recognize that this is an important will recognize that this is an important topic to discuss topic to discuss topic to discuss and will have this conversation. and will have this conversation. More than More than expected. Yes. expected. Yes. expected. Yes. Yes. It seems to me that Yes. It seems to me that Yes. It seems to me that people can say people can say people can say things like, "You know, your things like, "You know, your things like, "You know, your work is important to work is important to work is important to God," but it's not God," but it's not God," but it's not something meaningful, something meaningful, something meaningful, profound, or profound, or profound, or woven into their woven into their woven into their worldview or way of worldview or way of worldview or way of life. The community does not life. The community does not life. The community does not support all support all support all lawyers who have lawyers who have lawyers who have similar challenges, or similar challenges, or similar challenges, or all teachers who all teachers who all teachers who have the same challenges.

have the same challenges. This...we are seeking This...we are seeking greater depth. Um, greater depth. Um, greater depth. Um, Mark actually Mark actually Mark actually asked my asked my asked my question, but a little question, but a little question, but a little differently. So that differently. So that differently. So that means we have the means we have the means we have the opportunity to let you opportunity to let you opportunity to let you say something else that say something else that say something else that you didn't have time to say you didn't have time to say . Is there anything you . Is there anything you . Is there anything you want to say that want to say that want to say that we just didn't get to we just didn't get to we just didn't get to , and that's , and that's , and that's on your heart? on your heart? on your heart? Yes. So, I think Yes. So, I think Yes. So, I think one thing—we one thing—we one thing—we talked briefly at the beginning talked briefly at the beginning talked briefly at the beginning about the idea of ​​rest about the idea of ​​rest about the idea of ​​rest and the importance of and the importance of and the importance of rest. Um, rest. Um, rest. Um, in almost all of my books, the in almost all of my books, the in almost all of my books, the last chapter is last chapter is last chapter is dedicated dedicated dedicated to rest, because I to rest, because I to rest, because I consider it an important consider it an important consider it an important topic. But the first topic. But the first topic. But the first book I book I book I published, published, Working in the Working in the Working in the Presence of God, Presence of God, Presence of God, has a whole series of has a whole series of has a whole series of chapters. Each of chapters. Each of chapters. Each of them is a separate them is a separate them is a separate practice, a specific practice, a specific practice, a specific spiritual exercise that spiritual exercise that spiritual exercise that can be performed in the can be performed in the can be performed in the workplace or in your workplace or in your workplace or in your attitude towards work. attitude towards work. attitude towards work. Um, it might allow Um, it might allow Um, it might allow you to think about your you to think about your you to think about your work in a way that work in a way that work in a way that maybe God maybe God maybe God will allow you will allow you will allow you to encounter Him in your to encounter Him in your to encounter Him in your work, is how I would work, is how I would work, is how I would put it. So I would put it. So I would put it. So I would highly recommend to people highly recommend to people highly recommend to people if they are thinking if they are thinking if they are thinking about what it means about what it means about what it means to be a faithful to be a faithful to be a faithful Christian in the Christian in the Christian in the workplace that this workplace that this workplace that this book could be a book could be a book could be a good place to start. Uh, good place to start. Uh, good place to start. Uh, what practices can I what practices can I what practices can I use? What use? What use? What can I do to, um, can I do to, um, can I do to, um, recognize where God is recognize where God is recognize where God is already working around already working around already working around me, and where I can me, and where I can me, and where I can get involved in His get involved in His get involved in His work?

work? work? This, this is a great This, this is a great This, this is a great answer. This is answer. This is answer. This is incredible. Denise, incredible. Denise, incredible. Denise, I'm sad right now for I'm sad right now for I'm sad right now for two reasons. I'm two reasons. I'm two reasons. I'm sad that our sad that our sad that our interview is almost interview is almost interview is almost over, and I'm over, and I'm over, and I'm sad that I met sad that I met sad that I met you so late in you so late in you so late in my life. my life. my life. Me, I wish I knew Me, I wish I knew Me, I wish I knew you earlier. You're you earlier. You're you earlier. You're smart, funny, smart, funny, smart, funny, eloquent, and, you eloquent, and, you eloquent, and, you know, you know, you know, you confirm what confirm what confirm what needs needs needs confirming, but you also confirming, but you also push people a little push people a little to broaden their to broaden their to broaden their horizons. Thank you horizons. Thank you horizons. Thank you for your time, for your for your time, for your for your time, for your research, and for research, and for research, and for taking the time taking the time taking the time to describe it to to describe it to to describe it to make it available make it available make it available to the world. Um, there's only to the world. Um, there's only to the world. Um, there's only one Denise Daniels one Denise Daniels one Denise Daniels who writes about faith and who writes about faith and who writes about faith and work. So if you work. So if you work. So if you want to read her want to read her want to read her works, she's easy works, she's easy works, she's easy to find. And she always to find. And she always to find. And she always has a co-author. And I'll has a co-author. And I'll has a co-author. And I'll say it again: here's a book say it again: here's a book say it again: here's a book you can easily you can easily you can easily buy, "Working for Better buy, "Working for Better ." Mark, is there anything you want ." Mark, is there anything you want ." Mark, is there anything you want to say before to say before to say before we finish? we finish? we finish? I completely agree with I completely agree with I completely agree with your assessment of our your assessment of our your assessment of our time with Dr. Denise time with Dr. Denise time with Dr. Denise Daniels. My God, that Daniels. My God, that Daniels. My God, that was a great conversation. was a great conversation. was a great conversation. So thank you. So thank you. So thank you. Yes. Thank you very much, Yes. Thank you very much, Yes. Thank you very much, Dan and Mark. Dan and Mark. Dan and Mark. Thank you very much for inviting Thank you very much for inviting Thank you very much for inviting me. And I hope me. And I hope me. And I hope that one day we will that one day we will that one day we will also have the also have the also have the opportunity opportunity opportunity to meet in person.

to meet in person. to meet in person. Oh, I Oh, I Oh, I hope so too. OK. hope so too. OK. hope so too. OK. Thank you. Amen.