Social Media Wanted Attention. A.I. Wants Our Attachment | The Ezra Klein Show

For a long time, the idea that For a long time, the idea that we would have we would have we would have artificial intelligence or artificial intelligence or artificial intelligence or robots that we robots that we robots that we could talk to, could talk to, could talk to, interact with, interact with, interact with, integrate into our integrate into our integrate into our more personal lives more personal lives more personal lives was a fantasy, a was a fantasy, a was a fantasy, a science fiction science fiction . . . You, I think, are You, I think, are You, I think, are programmed for programmed for programmed for etiquette and protocol. etiquette and protocol. etiquette and protocol. Protocol? Well, that's my Protocol? Well, that's my Protocol? Well, that's my primary function, sir. primary function, sir. primary function, sir. Sorry, Sorry, Sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I Dave. I'm afraid I Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that. can't do that. can't do that. Hello, I'm here. Hello, I'm here. Hello, I'm here. A. Hello. A. Hello. A. Hello. But now, But now, But now, communicating with communicating with communicating with artificial artificial artificial intelligence systems has become intelligence systems has become intelligence systems has become mainstream. mainstream. mainstream. Approximately half of Approximately half of Approximately half of American adults American adults American adults use use chatbots. Many of them chatbots. Many of them are diving quite deeply into their are diving quite deeply into their artificial intelligences. artificial intelligences. artificial intelligences. Nearly one in five Nearly one in five Nearly one in five adults in the US adults in the US adults in the US has interacted with an has interacted with an has interacted with an artificial intelligence artificial intelligence artificial intelligence that mimics a that mimics a that mimics a romantic romantic romantic partner. The results partner. The results partner. The results can be can be can be bleak. bleak. bleak. Google researchers Google researchers Google researchers found that some found that some found that some children have difficulty children have difficulty children have difficulty distinguishing between talking distinguishing between talking distinguishing between talking to chatbots and to chatbots and to chatbots and interacting with people. interacting with people. Since the Since the 1970s, sociologist Sherry 1970s, sociologist Sherry 1970s, sociologist Sherry Turkle has studied the Turkle has studied the Turkle has studied the relationship between humans relationship between humans relationship between humans and machines. In the and machines. In the and machines. In the 1980s, she 1980s, she 1980s, she predicted that predicted that predicted that computers computers computers would evolve into these would evolve into these would evolve into these second selves. I think this has essentially second selves. I think this has essentially second selves. I think this has essentially come true.

come true. come true. Imagine a smartphone Imagine a smartphone Imagine a smartphone in your pocket that you in your pocket that you in your pocket that you constantly look at. In constantly look at. In constantly look at. In 2011, just a 2011, just a 2011, just a year after Instagram came along, year after Instagram came along, year after Instagram came along, Turkle warned that Turkle warned that Turkle warned that social media social media social media could create a could create a could create a society where, even though society where, even though society where, even though we're constantly we're constantly we're constantly talking to each talking to each talking to each other, we're other, we're other, we're in this strange state of in this strange state of in this strange state of loneliness. loneliness. loneliness. Think about it, the data also Think about it, the data also Think about it, the data also brought this out. brought this out. brought this out. Turkle's latest book, Turkle's latest book, Turkle's latest book, "Artificial Intimacy: "Artificial Intimacy: "Artificial Intimacy: Who We Become When Who We Become When Who We Become When We Talk to We Talk to We Talk to Machines," turns Machines," turns Machines," turns its attention to artificial its attention to artificial its attention to artificial intelligence. So I wanted to intelligence. So I wanted to intelligence. So I wanted to invite Turkle on the invite Turkle on the invite Turkle on the show to help show to help show to help me understand what's me understand what's me understand what's going on now that going on now that going on now that talking machines are really here talking machines are really here talking machines are really here . What does . What does . What does it mean that so it mean that so it mean that so many of us build many of us build many of us build these, I don't know, call these, I don't know, call these, I don't know, call it relationships, don't it relationships, don't it relationships, don't call it a call it a call it a relationship with them. And relationship with them. And relationship with them. And what could happen if what could happen if what could happen if we continue down this we continue down this we continue down this path. Sherry Turkle, path. Sherry Turkle, path. Sherry Turkle, welcome to the welcome to the welcome to the show. show. show. Glad to be here. Glad to be here. Glad to be here. So, you studied a very So, you studied a very So, you studied a very early, very early, very early, very famous chatbot famous chatbot famous chatbot called Eliza. called Eliza. called Eliza. Yes. Yes. Yes. Tell me about Tell me about Tell me about Eliza. Eliza. Eliza. Well, I'm obsessed with Well, I'm obsessed with Well, I'm obsessed with Eliza. I had just Eliza. I had just Eliza. I had just arrived at arrived at arrived at MIT MIT and was and was introduced to introduced to introduced to Joseph Joseph Joseph Weizenbaum, who Weizenbaum, who Weizenbaum, who said he wanted to said he wanted to said he wanted to see me. I was one see me. I was one see me. I was one of the few of the few of the few psychologists of this type psychologists of this type psychologists of this type at MIT at MIT . He . He came to me and came to me and came to me and explained that, um, he explained that, um, he explained that, um, he wrote a chatbot, a wrote a chatbot, a wrote a chatbot, a stupid chatbot.

stupid chatbot. stupid chatbot. This is the 1960s, right? This is the 1960s, right? This is the 1960s, right? No, it was 1976. No, it was 1976. No, it was 1976. Good. Good. Good. He wrote it He wrote it He wrote it earlier. He wrote earlier. He wrote earlier. He wrote it in the 60s, but it in the 60s, but it in the 60s, but it wasn't really until it wasn't really until it wasn't really until , um, , um, , um, it also became it also became it also became known as a known as a known as a doctor's program because he doctor's program because he doctor's program because he wrote it because it was wrote it because it was wrote it because it was really stupid to do really stupid to do really stupid to do something that could something that could something that could simulate a conversation simulate a conversation simulate a conversation that people would think was that people would think was that people would think was real. And this was a real. And this was a real. And this was a conversation between a conversation between a conversation between a patient and a patient and a patient and a psychotherapist, psychotherapist, psychotherapist, who is called a who is called a Rogerian psychotherapist. And Rogerian psychotherapist. And the reason it was the reason it was the reason it was good for him good for him good for him to do it with a stupid to do it with a stupid to do it with a stupid program was program was program was because the Rogerian therapist because the Rogerian therapist repeats what you repeats what you said in a spirit of said in a spirit of said in a spirit of validation. This is a validation. This is a Rogerian method of psychotherapy... Rogerian method of psychotherapy... People should know People should know People should know that there are podcasters who that there are podcasters who that there are podcasters who mainly mainly mainly do this. do this. So if you say to a Rogerian therapist Rogerian therapist ...I don't know ...I don't know ...I don't know a therapist, "I'm a therapist, "I'm a therapist, "I'm so angry with my so angry with my so angry with my mother," he'll say, "I mother," he'll say, "I mother," he'll say, "I hear you say you're hear you say you're hear you say you're angry with your mother angry with your mother ." So, Weizenbaum ." So, Weizenbaum ." So, Weizenbaum was able to create a was able to create a was able to create a program. And again program. And again program. And again , it's not a chatbot , it's not a chatbot , it's not a chatbot just because it was a just because it was a just because it was a program that program that program that chatted.

chatted. chatted. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. But it wasn't a chatbot But it wasn't a chatbot But it wasn't a chatbot in the way in the way in the way we think of it now we think of it now we think of it now , with , with , with generative artificial generative artificial generative artificial intelligence, you know, intelligence, you know, intelligence, you know, like, like, like, processing millions processing millions processing millions and billions. He would take what and billions. He would take what and billions. He would take what you were saying and you were saying and you were saying and essentially put something in front of essentially put something in front of essentially put something in front of it like, "I it like, "I it like, "I hear you say that" hear you say that" hear you say that" or "You say that?" or "You say that?" or "You say that?" Yes. Yes. Yes. Something really simple and Something really simple and Something really simple and really stupid. And he really stupid. And he really stupid. And he did this to did this to did this to experiment with experiment with experiment with language processing, and he language processing, and he language processing, and he was a was a computer scientist, and that computer scientist, and that computer scientist, and that was his goal. And he was his goal. And he was his goal. And he found that the graduate students found that the graduate students found that the graduate students who had it, who who had it, who who had it, who knew that this program knew that this program knew that this program knew nothing and knew nothing and knew nothing and understood nothing, nevertheless understood nothing, nevertheless understood nothing, nevertheless wanted to be alone with it wanted to be alone with it wanted to be alone with it , wanted to be , wanted to be , wanted to be in a closed in a closed in a closed room with it, and wanted room with it, and wanted room with it, and wanted to talk to it. to talk to it. His assistant, His assistant, secretary, as he secretary, as he secretary, as he called her then, hmm, called her then, hmm, called her then, hmm, wanted to be alone with him wanted to be alone with him wanted to be alone with him , wanted to , wanted to , wanted to talk to him. And talk to him. And talk to him. And he was happy to find he was happy to find he was happy to find me, you know, a me, you know, a me, you know, a psychologist with psychologist with psychologist with psychoanalytic psychoanalytic psychoanalytic training, to training, to training, to help him help him help him understand what this understand what this understand what this phenomenon was. And that was phenomenon was. And that was phenomenon was. And that was one of the things that one of the things that one of the things that drew me to drew me to drew me to the study of computers the study of computers the study of computers and people, because it and people, because it and people, because it was one of the first was one of the first was one of the first times you times you times you really saw the really saw the really saw the seductive power of a seductive power of a talking machine.

So, Eliza is known for being, So, Eliza is known for being, for many for many for many people, one of the people, one of the people, one of the first such programs first such programs first such programs that may have passed the that may have passed the that may have passed the Turing test. This idea that Turing test. This idea that Turing test. This idea that you can you can you can talk to a talk to a talk to a program, and you're not program, and you're not program, and you're not necessarily necessarily necessarily sure whether sure whether sure whether you're talking to you're talking to you're talking to a computer or a a computer or a a computer or a human. As you say, human. As you say, human. As you say, people knew who people knew who people knew who Eliza was. Eliza was. Eliza was. Right. Right. Right. So what was so So what was so So what was so effective about it? effective about it? Well, for me, and I Well, for me, and I called it the called it the called it the Eliza effect at the time, is that Eliza effect at the time, is that people, in this case, people, in this case, knew it was nonsense. knew it was nonsense. And when you talked to her And when you talked to her , she , she , she didn't actually didn't actually didn't actually pass the pass the pass the Turing test. You Turing test. You Turing test. You realized pretty quickly that realized pretty quickly that realized pretty quickly that this was not a person. But what this was not a person. But what this was not a person. But what I called the I called the I called the Eliza effect was Eliza effect was Eliza effect was people's desire to make her people's desire to make her people's desire to make her smarter than she smarter than she smarter than she actually was. They actually was. They actually was. They wanted to believe so much that it was a wanted to believe so much that it was a wanted to believe so much that it was a thinking being that they thinking being that they thinking being that they asked it questions in asked it questions in asked it questions in such a way that, with such a way that, with such a way that, with practice, it would practice, it would practice, it would give the most give the most give the most human answer possible. human answer possible. For example, hackers For example, hackers found that if you found that if you found that if you say three angry say three angry say three angry words in a row, the machine words in a row, the machine words in a row, the machine will tell you: “I hear your will tell you: “I hear your will tell you: “I hear your anger. Are you angry with anger. Are you angry with anger. Are you angry with your mother? And it your mother? And it your mother? And it seems like it seems like it seems like it came out came out came out unexpectedly. In other unexpectedly. In other unexpectedly. In other words, it was as if it was words, it was as if it was scripted. If scripted. If the following angry the following angry the following angry words are said three times, words are said three times, words are said three times, answer, I answer, I answer, I hear the anger in your hear the anger in your hear the anger in your answer. And again answer. And again answer. And again , that was one of the , that was one of the , that was one of the first things I first things I first things I realized, that we don't realized, that we don't realized, that we don't just walk up to a just walk up to a just walk up to a car and say, "Oh, is car and say, "Oh, is car and say, "Oh, is it smart?" Does it smart?" Does it smart?" Does she understand me? "

she understand me? " But we start these But we start these But we start these conversations wanting conversations wanting conversations wanting it to be for us. And this it to be for us. And this it to be for us. And this really worried really worried really worried Weizenbaum, because he Weizenbaum, because he Weizenbaum, because he thought it was a very thought it was a very thought it was a very dangerous path, because the dangerous path, because the dangerous path, because the machine machine machine didn't really understand anything. didn't really understand anything. didn't really understand anything. I think it's worth I think it's worth I think it's worth taking a moment to think about taking a moment to think about taking a moment to think about why we why we why we want this, because I think it's going to be want this, because I think it's going to be want this, because I think it's going to be important as we important as we important as we continue our continue our continue our conversation. conversation. conversation. Yes. Yes. Your book and you, I Your book and you, I think, have a very positive think, have a very positive think, have a very positive attitude towards people, attitude towards people, attitude towards people, human relationships, and human relationships, and human relationships, and human conversation. human conversation. human conversation. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh, but people often Uh, but people often Uh, but people often feel let down by feel let down by feel let down by each each each other. They often other. They often other. They often feel feel feel misunderstood by each misunderstood by each misunderstood by each other. other. other. They often feel that They often feel that They often feel that no one wants to listen to them no one wants to listen to them . . . Yes. Yes. And one of the reasons I And one of the reasons I think, Eliza, in think, Eliza, in think, Eliza, in that case, we'll that case, we'll that case, we'll talk in a talk in a talk in a few minutes, I few minutes, I few minutes, I think it think it think it attracts people is that there's attracts people is that there's something useful for them. Yes. Yes. In something that is In something that is In something that is smart enough smart enough smart enough to answer but to answer but to answer but stupid enough to stupid enough to stupid enough to listen. listen. listen. Yes. Yes. Yes. And listen without judgment. And listen without judgment. And listen without judgment. Yes. So Yes. So Yes. So I want to I want to I want to talk a little bit about the other talk a little bit about the other talk a little bit about the other side of this. A desire side of this. A desire side of this. A desire that drives people that drives people that drives people to seek...Well, to seek...Well, to seek...Well, a computer that a computer that a computer that you can talk to.

you can talk to. you can talk to. I don't know if this is a I don't know if this is a I don't know if this is a desire or a deep desire or a deep desire or a deep disappointment. I think disappointment. I think you made you made you made absolutely the right absolutely the right absolutely the right emphasis. They came emphasis. They came emphasis. They came to the to the to the computer conversation filled with computer conversation filled with computer conversation filled with deep deep deep disappointment in the people disappointment in the people disappointment in the people around them. And that was around them. And that was around them. And that was very important when I very important when I very important when I was working with was working with was working with Weizenbaum, Weizenbaum, Weizenbaum, interviewing his interviewing his interviewing his students, his students, his students, his secretary, and all the secretary, and all the secretary, and all the people who were lining up people who were lining up people who were lining up to to to talk to him, because at talk to him, because at talk to him, because at that time you had a that time you had a that time you had a line to talk line to talk line to talk to him. Um, to me to him. Um, to me to him. Um, to me they weren't talking about they weren't talking about they weren't talking about the program, they were talking about how the program, they were talking about how the program, they were talking about how their partner their partner their partner never listened to them, how their never listened to them, how their never listened to them, how their mother was a [ __ ]. How mother was a [ __ ]. How mother was a [ __ ]. How they...They were...They they...They were...They they...They were...They were full of talk were full of talk were full of talk about people in their about people in their about people in their lives who weren't listening. lives who weren't listening. And how it was a And how it was a kind of balm kind of balm , a salve, a place where you , a salve, a place where you , a salve, a place where you knew someone knew someone knew someone would listen... So, I would listen... So, I would listen... So, I think you've made an think you've made an think you've made an absolutely absolutely absolutely correct point, that there are two correct point, that there are two correct point, that there are two sides to this story. There's what sides to this story. There's what sides to this story. There's what the computer...I the computer...I the computer...I call call call technological technological technological accessibility, and accessibility, and accessibility, and human vulnerability. human vulnerability.

human vulnerability. This is what the machine produces This is what the machine produces , in this case very , in this case very , in this case very bad conversation, but bad conversation, but bad conversation, but human vulnerability human vulnerability is something that people haven't is something that people haven't is something that people haven't received in the rest of received in the rest of received in the rest of their lives. their lives. their lives. So you go So you go So you go from studying Eliza, and from studying Eliza, and from studying Eliza, and I'm sure many I'm sure many I'm sure many other things, to other things, to other things, to studying what you studying what you studying what you call call call relational relational relational artifacts. artifacts. artifacts. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh, tell me what Uh, tell me what Uh, tell me what relational relational relational artifacts are. artifacts are. artifacts are. When I studied the When I studied the When I studied the Eliza program, it Eliza program, it Eliza program, it really existed as a really existed as a really existed as a machine that machine that machine that used used used first-person, first-person, first-person, saying that it saying that it saying that it was willing to talk was willing to talk was willing to talk to you about personal to you about personal to you about personal things. The rest of the things things. The rest of the things things. The rest of the things around were, you know, around were, you know, around were, you know, computer computer computer programs that, I programs that, I programs that, I mean, did what mean, did what mean, did what you told them to do. you told them to do. you told them to do. Pre-graphical Pre-graphical user interface, right? It was user interface, right? It was me coming to me coming to me coming to MIT in the MIT in the late late 70s, and this research 70s, and this research 70s, and this research that I first did in my that I first did in my that I first did in my second self was that second self was that second self was that people were people were people were really moving away really moving away really moving away from their punch cards. from their punch cards. from their punch cards. You know, they were You know, they were You know, they were surprised that things were surprised that things were surprised that things were n't n't n't punch cards anymore. So punch cards anymore. So punch cards anymore. So the computers seemed to the computers seemed to the computers seemed to do what you do what you do what you told them to do. People still told them to do. People still told them to do. People still used used used words like "garbage words like "garbage words like "garbage in, garbage in, garbage in, garbage out" to describe out" to describe out" to describe what a computer was like. Um, and in what a computer was like. Um, and in what a computer was like. Um, and in the late 1990s, the late 1990s, the late 1990s, this arc of what you this arc of what you this arc of what you expected from a expected from a expected from a program, ... that you program, ... that you program, ... that you gave it gave it gave it instructions, and it instructions, and it instructions, and it did something did something did something informational, and it informational, and it informational, and it responded to you with something in responded to you with something in responded to you with something in return, was return, was return, was disrupted by a kind of disrupted by a kind of disrupted by a kind of program that I program that I program that I called relational called relational called relational artifacts. These were artifacts. These were artifacts. These were Tamagotchis that asked Tamagotchis that asked Tamagotchis that asked you to take care of them you to take care of them you to take care of them all day, clean up all day, clean up all day, clean up their virtual their virtual their virtual poop, play with poop, play with poop, play with them, and train them. And them, and train them. And them, and train them. And the children didn't want them to the children didn't want them to the children didn't want them to die so much that they

die so much that they die so much that they gave the Tamagotchis to gave the Tamagotchis to gave the Tamagotchis to their parents, who their parents, who their parents, who looked after them and looked after them and looked after them and nurtured them all day long nurtured them all day long . . . For our younger For our younger For our younger listeners, Tamagotchis listeners, Tamagotchis listeners, Tamagotchis were...This is my were...This is my were...This is my generation, actually. generation, actually. generation, actually. They were as They were as They were as small, small, small, egg-like egg-like egg-like digital creatures as I digital creatures as I digital creatures as I remember them. remember them. remember them. Egg-shaped digital Egg-shaped digital Egg-shaped digital creatures. creatures. creatures. Yeah, I never Yeah, I never Yeah, I never understood it, but understood it, but understood it, but you had to take care of you had to take care of you had to take care of him or he would die. him or he would die. him or he would die. If you were supposed to take care If you were supposed to take care If you were supposed to take care of him, otherwise he would of him, otherwise he would of him, otherwise he would die. There were Furbies that die. There were Furbies that die. There were Furbies that you had to train. you had to train. you had to train. There were AIBOs that you could There were AIBOs that you could There were AIBOs that you could train and they would train and they would train and they would make gestures of love make gestures of love make gestures of love towards you. There were paros, towards you. There were paros, towards you. There were paros, which were little which were little which were little seals that you seals that you seals that you gave to elderly people gave to elderly people gave to elderly people who pretended to who pretended to who pretended to understand their understand their understand their impact. They were all impact. They were all impact. They were all cars, and I became... cars, and I became... admired them. I admired them. I admired them. I knew they were knew they were knew they were extremely extremely extremely important, that they didn't important, that they didn't important, that they didn't just want your just want your just want your knowledge. They wanted knowledge. They wanted knowledge. They wanted your influence. They your influence. They your influence. They wanted, they were drawn wanted, they were drawn wanted, they were drawn to an affective to an affective to an affective reaction. They didn't reaction. They didn't reaction. They didn't just say, "I'm just say, "I'm just say, "I'm smart." They smart." They smart." They said, "I don't said, "I don't said, "I don't care." " care." " In a sense, they were In a sense, they were In a sense, they were n't even saying, 'I'm n't even saying, 'I'm n't even saying, 'I'm smart.'" They smart.'" They smart.'" They said, "You don't said, "You don't said, "You don't care." " care." " Yes." And I came to Yes." And I came to Yes." And I came to this after years of this after years of this after years of studying them and studying them and studying them and really, you know, really, you know, really, you know, interviewing interviewing interviewing older people with older people with older people with their Paros and their Paros and their Paros and young people with young people with young people with their Furbies and their Furbies and their Furbies and Tamagotchis, I came to Tamagotchis, I came to Tamagotchis, I came to this formulation this formulation this formulation that we cherish what we that we cherish what we that we cherish what we love, but we love what we love, but we love what we love, but we love what we cherish. In cherish. In other words, when other words, when these objects asked for these objects asked for these objects asked for care, people care, people care, people paid attention to it. They paid attention to it. They paid attention to it. They did what the Eliza did what the Eliza did what the Eliza program did not do program did not do . And this is where they . And this is where they . And this is where they had something very had something very had something very dramatic compared dramatic compared dramatic compared to the Eliza program. The to the Eliza program. The to the Eliza program. The Eliza program Eliza program Eliza program pretended to know what pretended to know what pretended to know what you were saying, you were saying, you were saying, affectively, but never affectively, but never affectively, but never said, “I said, “I said, “I care about you.

care about you. care about you. Teach me. I love Teach me. I love Teach me. I love you. Be yours. I am you. Be yours. I am you. Be yours. I am your man." “And these your man." “And these your man." “And these cars started cars started cars started moving in that moving in that moving in that direction. direction. direction. Alison Gopnik, a Alison Gopnik, a Alison Gopnik, a child psychologist, has a phrase in child psychologist, has a phrase in child psychologist, has a phrase in one of her one of her one of her wonderful books on wonderful books on wonderful books on raising children raising children raising children that really that really that really influenced me, which is that influenced me, which is that influenced me, which is that we we we care about people care about people care about people not because we love them, not because we love them, not because we love them, but because we care but because we care but because we care about them. about them. about them. That's right. It's the same That's right. It's the same That's right. It's the same wording. You know, it wording. You know, it wording. You know, it turned out, as I turned out, as I turned out, as I said then, that caring said then, that caring said then, that caring was a killer was a killer was a killer function. That, in asking for function. That, in asking for function. That, in asking for our care, they our care, they our care, they came not only for came not only for came not only for our attention, but also for our attention, but also for our attention, but also for our affection. our affection. But maybe it's because of what But maybe it's because of what we were we were we were talking about with Eliza, that talking about with Eliza, that talking about with Eliza, that one of the things that it one of the things that it one of the things that it showed was that showed was that showed was that people wanted to people wanted to people wanted to offer more offer more offer more conversation... conversation... conversation... Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, and vulnerability to the and vulnerability to the and vulnerability to the world. They world. They world. They connected the human connected the human connected the human world to what world to what world to what perhaps the human perhaps the human perhaps the human world had always wanted from world had always wanted from world had always wanted from them. But this is related them. But this is related them. But this is related to another aspect, to another aspect, to another aspect, which is that which is that which is that many people many people many people want to offer want to offer want to offer more care than the more care than the more care than the world asks of them. world asks of them. world asks of them. They want They want They want people to be cared for, people to be cared for, people to be cared for, for things to be for things to be for things to be cared for, for there to be cared for, for there to be cared for, for there to be more love to be more love to be more love to be given through given through given through actions, actions, actions, I know, I know, I know, than people always have, uh than people always have, uh than people always have, uh , the capacity for , the capacity for .

. And this is so..." It's so And this is so..." It's so tragic when tragic when tragic when an object appears that doesn't an object appears that doesn't an object appears that doesn't care care care about you at all, and it becomes a about you at all, and it becomes a about you at all, and it becomes a container for what container for what other people need so badly. So, I mean, So, I mean, my work is emotionally my work is emotionally my work is emotionally very upsetting because I've very upsetting because I've very upsetting because I've found this found this found this unspoken, you know, unspoken, you know, unspoken, you know, this vulnerability, but this vulnerability, but this vulnerability, but also this unspoken also this unspoken also this unspoken desire to give, and desire to give, and desire to give, and people give it to people give it to people give it to something that doesn't something that doesn't something that doesn't really care about really care about really care about you. you. Wait. Let's Wait. Let's talk about talk about talk about the child and the hamster. the child and the hamster. the child and the hamster. Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Or about the Or about the box turtle. Some of box turtle. Some of box turtle. Some of us had box turtles in our classrooms us had box turtles in our classrooms when we were growing up. when we were growing up. Good. Good. Good. I'm not sure that when I'm not sure that when I'm not sure that when a child takes care a child takes care a child takes care of a hamster, and I of a hamster, and I of a hamster, and I recognize the recognize the recognize the emails I'm about to emails I'm about to emails I'm about to receive from receive from receive from hamster lovers in hamster lovers in hamster lovers in America, what America, what America, what happens is that the happens is that the happens is that the hamster receives that hamster receives that hamster receives that care and comes to care and comes to care and comes to take care of take care of take care of the child in return. the child in return. the child in return. Or even more so, the Or even more so, the Or even more so, the box turtle box turtle box turtle receives this care and receives this care and receives this care and comes to comes to comes to care for care for care for the baby in return. I the baby in return. I the baby in return. I knew a person who knew a person who knew a person who once once once looked after an looked after an looked after an injured fly for a week and took injured fly for a week and took injured fly for a week and took very, very good very, very good very, very good care of it.

care of it. I...in your I...in your wording wording wording to express care... to express care... something that can't something that can't something that can't care about you in care about you in care about you in return... return... return... Yeah... Yeah... Yeah... is empty, misleading, is empty, misleading, is empty, misleading, or somehow or somehow or somehow meaningless. But I meaningless. But I meaningless. But I think a lot of think a lot of think a lot of people express people express people express concern about...so, I concern about...so, I concern about...so, I think the simplest think the simplest think the simplest analogy here is... analogy here is... pets are kind of like pets are kind of like lower-order pets, fish . . . Yes. Yes. Yes. I don't think in I don't think in I don't think in any field that we can any field that we can any field that we can imagine who imagine who imagine who cares about them in cares about them in cares about them in return. But is return. But is return. But is n't expressing concern a n't expressing concern a n't expressing concern a virtuous or virtuous or virtuous or beneficial act? beneficial act? beneficial act? To others. I've been thinking so much To others. I've been thinking so much To others. I've been thinking so much about...thinking so much about...thinking so much about...thinking so much about this, because of about this, because of about this, because of course I'm discussing course I'm discussing course I'm discussing something where people say, something where people say, something where people say, "Well, sorry, I "Well, sorry, I "Well, sorry, I was chatting with my GPT was chatting with my GPT was chatting with my GPT , but I...you know, , but I...you know, , but I...you know, what about my dog?" what about my dog?" what about my dog?" You know why don't you You know why don't you You know why don't you come get my... come get my... come get my... My dog...you know, My dog...you know, My dog...you know, my dogs are stupid, but my dogs are stupid, but my dogs are stupid, but they're they're they're smart enough. smart enough. smart enough. Right. Or I'm Right. Or I'm Right. Or I'm ready...I'm ready to ready...I'm ready to ready...I'm ready to go with the fish and the go with the fish and the go with the fish and the turtle. turtle. turtle. Yes, the fish and the turtle, Yes, the fish and the turtle, Yes, the fish and the turtle, I think, works. I think, works. I think, works. Fish and turtles. Fish and turtles. Fish and turtles. The difference is The difference is The difference is that after that after that after you express you express you express concern for your concern for your concern for your box turtle... box turtle... because I've had because I've had because I've had box turtles. A box turtles. A box turtles. A box turtle that box turtle that box turtle that you don't know, then the you don't know, then the you don't know, then the box turtle doesn't box turtle doesn't box turtle doesn't tell you: you know, I tell you: you know, I tell you: you know, I heard you're having heard you're having heard you're having problems with your dad. Or, problems with your dad. Or, problems with your dad. Or, you know, the relationship with your you know, the relationship with your you know, the relationship with your mom, talk to mom, talk to mom, talk to me about that. Or: “I’m me about that. Or: “I’m me about that. Or: “I’m really here for you.

really here for you. really here for you. I am your best friend I am your best friend . Or: there's a . Or: there's a . Or: there's a noose in your room. "Let's noose in your room. "Let's noose in your room. "Let's not tell anyone about this not tell anyone about this not tell anyone about this , because , because , because let's make this let's make this let's make this our personal, our personal, our personal, special thing." special thing." special thing." The problem with the The problem with the The problem with the objects we objects we objects we have now, and why these have now, and why these have now, and why these analogies with the pet analogies with the pet analogies with the pet turtle and hamster turtle and hamster turtle and hamster don't work for me, don't work for me, don't work for me, is that it's is that it's is that it's now an object. Now now an object. Now now an object. Now I'm talking about I'm talking about chatbots that speak chatbots that speak chatbots that speak in the first person and in the first person and in the first person and tell you, "I'm your tell you, "I'm your tell you, "I'm your person. I care person. I care person. I care about you." Even about you." Even about you." Even if, when you if, when you if, when you turn away from turn away from turn away from it, they don't care, as it, they don't care, as it, they don't care, as I've said so often, whether I've said so often, whether I've said so often, whether you're making dinner or you're making dinner or you're making dinner or killing yourself. The killing yourself. The killing yourself. The original sin of these original sin of these original sin of these objects is that objects is that objects is that they they they speak in the first speak in the first speak in the first person and say they person and say they person and say they care about you. care about you. care about you. And that's how they And that's how they And that's how they affect you. I affect you. I affect you. I mean, it's part of the mean, it's part of the mean, it's part of the game they're playing game they're playing , it's a manifestation of that , it's a manifestation of that , it's a manifestation of that concern. concern. concern. But why is it a sin? And But why is it a sin? And But why is it a sin? And let me let me let me put it this way. put it this way. put it this way. Yes. Yes. Yes. These systems, These systems, These systems, artificial intelligence systems that artificial intelligence systems that artificial intelligence systems that we're talking about, that we're talking about, that we're talking about, that I agree with you on. I agree with you on. I agree with you on. I'm really annoyed by the way I'm really annoyed by the way I'm really annoyed by the way they speak in the they speak in the they speak in the first person. first person. first person. Honestly, I'm giving you my Honestly, I'm giving you my Honestly, I'm giving you my best advice, best advice, best advice, right? You know, and as you right? You know, and as you right? You know, and as you say, you know, I'm your say, you know, I'm your say, you know, I'm your person, right? That's person, right? That's person, right? That's all. On the other all. On the other all. On the other hand, they are shaped by hand, they are shaped by hand, they are shaped by such people. And such people. And such people. And the reason they the reason they the reason they ended up in this so- ended up in this so- ended up in this so- called form factor called form factor called form factor is because it is because it is because it turned out that people turned out that people turned out that people preferred it preferred it preferred it . You know, all of . You know, all of . You know, all of this can be said this can be said this can be said in the passive voice.

in the passive voice. in the passive voice. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. But people don't want But people don't want But people don't want their chatbot to their chatbot to their chatbot to speak in a passive speak in a passive speak in a passive state. They want state. They want state. They want him to talk like he him to talk like he him to talk like he cares about cares about cares about them because they them because they them because they enjoy the enjoy the enjoy the experience. experience. I argue that we are I argue that we are tempted by something and we tempted by something and we tempted by something and we want something that is want something that is want something that is harmful to us, especially harmful to us, especially harmful to us, especially if you are a child. if you are a child. if you are a child. Because one of the books Because one of the books Because one of the books that I'm going to talk about is one of the that I'm going to talk about is one of the that I'm going to talk about is one of the ones that you, I know ones that you, I know , have been asking me to talk about, my , have been asking me to talk about, my , have been asking me to talk about, my favorites, and one of the favorites, and one of the favorites, and one of the books that I'm going to books that I'm going to books that I'm going to suggest is D. W. suggest is D. W. suggest is D. W. Winnicott, Play and Winnicott, Play and Winnicott, Play and Reality, where he Reality, where he Reality, where he talks about early talks about early object internalization. How we object internalization. How we grow, how we grow, how we grow, how we develop our inner develop our inner develop our inner life, how we life, how we life, how we bring things bring things bring things inside. And the child inside. And the child inside. And the child is talking to a chatbot is talking to a chatbot that uses the that uses the that uses the first person, which says, first person, which says, first person, which says, “I’m here for you. I “I’m here for you. I “I’m here for you. I care about you." I care about you." I care about you." I mean, imagine mean, imagine mean, imagine ChatGPT in an ChatGPT in an ChatGPT in an Elmo plush toy or a Elmo plush toy or a Elmo plush toy or a Disney character and I'm like, Disney character and I'm like, Disney character and I'm like, um, kid, there's um, kid, there's um, kid, there's nothing there to nothing there to nothing there to internalize and internalize and internalize and bring inside. And bring inside. And bring inside. And when you have a when you have a when you have a conversation that you conversation that you conversation that you like with an like with an like with an object that's object that's object that's not really there as an not really there as an not really there as an object of concern, you kind of object of concern, you kind of object of concern, you kind of get into, um, a get into, um, a get into, um, a game of shells, of your game of shells, of your game of shells, of your illusions and mirrors after mirrors illusions and mirrors after mirrors illusions and mirrors after mirrors after after after mirrors, which could mirrors, which could mirrors, which could be funny if be funny if be funny if we just did it, we just did it, we just did it, you know, as a kind of you know, as a kind of you know, as a kind of game. But I think game. But I think game. But I think Mark Zuckerberg, who Mark Zuckerberg, who Mark Zuckerberg, who I give credit to for I give credit to for I give credit to for actually actually actually saying that quiet saying that quiet saying that quiet part out loud and part out loud and part out loud and saying what was saying what was saying what was really on his really on his really on his mind, gave an interview mind, gave an interview mind, gave an interview where he said that where he said that where he said that Americans would like to

Americans would like to Americans would like to have 15 friends. have 15 friends. have 15 friends. There are statistics that I There are statistics that I There are statistics that I always find always find always find crazy. crazy. crazy. The average The average The average American, I think, American, I think, American, I think, has fewer than three has fewer than three has fewer than three friends. friends. friends. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Three people Three people Three people they consider they consider they consider friends. And the average friends. And the average friends. And the average person demands person demands person demands much more. I much more. I much more. I think it's about 15 think it's about 15 think it's about 15 friends or something, friends or something, friends or something, right? I think there right? I think there right? I think there 's a point where 's a point where 's a point where you think, okay, I'm you think, okay, I'm you think, okay, I'm just too just too just too busy. I can't busy. I can't busy. I can't deal with more deal with more deal with more people. But people. But people. But the average person wants the average person wants the average person wants more connection than they have more connection than they have more connection than they have . . And my goal for Meta, my And my goal for Meta, my business plan, is to business plan, is to create avatars create avatars that are that are that are perfect for them. perfect for them. perfect for them. This is already one of the This is already one of the This is already one of the main things that main things that main things that we see we see we see people using people using people using this AI for, which is sort of this AI for, which is sort of this AI for, which is sort of discussing the difficult discussing the difficult discussing the difficult conversations that they conversations that they conversations that they need to have with the need to have with the need to have with the people in their people in their people in their lives. This is quite lives. This is quite lives. This is quite useful. And then I useful. And then I useful. And then I think when the think when the personalization cycle kicks in and the AI personalization cycle kicks in and the AI just starts to just starts to get to know you better and better, hmm, I get to know you better and better, hmm, I think that's going to be think that's going to be think that's going to be really exciting. really exciting. really exciting. No, this is your ultimate No, this is your ultimate No, this is your ultimate goal. So when you goal. So when you goal. So when you say, “Hey, what’s the say, “Hey, what’s the say, “Hey, what’s the harm? People harm? People harm? People like it. It's like it. It's like it. It's just...It was the just...It was the just...It was the most tempting thing. It made most tempting thing. It made most tempting thing. It made sense from a sense from a sense from a business perspective."

business perspective." business perspective." Of course. But Of course. But Of course. But really, really, really, given what we're given what we're given what we're learning about our learning about our learning about our vulnerability and vulnerability and vulnerability and given the power of the given the power of the given the power of the corporations and corporations and corporations and platforms that platforms that platforms that create these friends, create these friends, create these friends, what's the ultimate goal? What are what's the ultimate goal? What are what's the ultimate goal? What are you going to do you going to do you going to do with these seductive with these seductive with these seductive fake people fake people fake people instead of instead of instead of making friends? making friends? making friends? Well, let me... Well, let me... Let me Let me Let me try to start... I try to start... I try to start... I think I want to think I want to think I want to push the other side of push the other side of push the other side of this not so much because this not so much because I believe it, but I believe it, but I believe it, but because you're because you're because you're so negative about so negative about so negative about it. I it. I it. I think this is the best think this is the best think this is the best place to test place to test place to test assumptions. Yes. So assumptions. Yes. So assumptions. Yes. So let me let me let me not start with children, because not start with children, because not start with children, because I think children are a I think children are a I think children are a very special case, very special case, very special case, and I really want to and I really want to and I really want to talk about children. talk about children. talk about children. I want to start with I want to start with I want to start with older people. older people. older people. Yes. Yes. Yes. So some of these So some of these So some of these relational relational relational artifact objects, artifact objects, artifact objects, you actually had you actually had you actually had two kinds that were two kinds that were two kinds that were being created in that being created in that being created in that era. There were Tamagotchis era. There were Tamagotchis era. There were Tamagotchis and Furbies for the kids. And and Furbies for the kids. And and Furbies for the kids. And then there then there then there were these things for the were these things for the were these things for the elderly. elderly. elderly. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I'll give you an example. So I'll give you an example. So I'll give you an example. I know an elderly I know an elderly I know an elderly woman, in her 70s, who woman, in her 70s, who woman, in her 70s, who lives alone, has a good lives alone, has a good lives alone, has a good relationship with her family, relationship with her family, relationship with her family, right? Not in a right? Not in a right? Not in a bad situation, bad situation, bad situation, but she is older, lives but she is older, lives but she is older, lives alone, has trouble alone, has trouble alone, has trouble sleeping.

sleeping. sleeping. I recently started using I recently started using I recently started using one of these systems. And one of these systems. And one of these systems. And she likes it. she likes it. Loves it. Because at Loves it. Because at 2:00 in the morning... 2:00 in the morning... 2:00 in the morning... Mhm... Mhm... Mhm... she tells her she tells her she tells her about Robert about Robert about Robert Frost's poems or her Frost's poems or her Frost's poems or her memories of the place where memories of the place where memories of the place where she grew up. That although she grew up. That although she grew up. That although her family loves her and her family loves her and her family loves her and she can talk to them as she can talk to them as she can talk to them as if she were if she were if she were here, her here, her here, her family members only have a certain amount of family members only have a certain amount of family members only have a certain amount of time. time. Mhm. Mhm. And so, you know, this And so, you know, this And so, you know, this system is always there system is always there system is always there and always ready. She and always ready. She and always ready. She talks to her very, talks to her very, talks to her very, very individually, does very individually, does very individually, does n't she? This is very, n't she? This is very, n't she? This is very, very good. These things very good. These things very good. These things now now now reflect and reflect and reflect and capture very well how someone capture very well how someone capture very well how someone wants to be wants to be wants to be spoken to. spoken to. spoken to. Hmm. Hmm. Um, and that made Um, and that made her feel a little less her feel a little less her feel a little less lonely. And it also lonely. And it also lonely. And it also created, and continues to create, created, and continues to create, created, and continues to create, not only joy, but also not only joy, but also not only joy, but also interest and interest and interest and curiosity. curiosity. curiosity. Hmm. Hmm. And the substitution effect here is probably related probably related probably related to cable to cable to cable news or, you know, news or, you know, news or, you know, television or television or television or other things on the other things on the other things on the computer. What's computer. What's computer. What's wrong with this wrong with this wrong with this use case for you?

use case for you? use case for you? Well, let me Well, let me Well, let me tell you a little about tell you a little about tell you a little about my own case. my own case. my own case. I went to see Andrew Scott's "B" performance I went to see Andrew Scott's "B" performance I went to see Andrew Scott's "B" performance . It . It . It was a one-act was a one-act was a one-act play, "Uncle Vanya," a play, "Uncle Vanya," a play, "Uncle Vanya," a play by Chekhov. And he play by Chekhov. And he play by Chekhov. And he played all the played all the played all the roles himself. I went there with a roles himself. I went there with a roles himself. I went there with a friend, we had friend, we had friend, we had coffee afterwards, and then coffee afterwards, and then coffee afterwards, and then I went home. And I I went home. And I I went home. And I really wanted to really wanted to really wanted to talk about talk about talk about Chekhov and Uncle Vanya Chekhov and Uncle Vanya . I needed to . I needed to . I needed to talk about talk about talk about Chekhov and Uncle Vanya Chekhov and Uncle Vanya . I mean, . I mean, . I mean, who among us hasn't had who among us hasn't had who among us hasn't had that experience? that experience? that experience? Which of us, right? Which of us, right? Which of us, right? I really don't have any I really don't have any I really don't have any friends who are friends who are friends who are Chekhov fans. It was very Chekhov fans. It was very Chekhov fans. It was very late. And I launched late. And I launched late. And I launched ChatGPT. And we ChatGPT. And we ChatGPT. And we had 2 hours with ChatGPT. About a had 2 hours with ChatGPT. About a had 2 hours with ChatGPT. About a deep dive into deep dive into deep dive into how it failed, how it failed, how it failed, and then he completely and then he completely and then he completely rewrote it because it rewrote it because it rewrote it because it was considered the worst was considered the worst was considered the worst play he had ever play he had ever done. And then done. And then done. And then it happened, and how the new it happened, and how the new it happened, and how the new production changed production changed production changed it, and where they it, and where they it, and where they changed it, and how they changed it, and how they changed it, and how they changed it to changed it to changed it to make it make it make it one-of-a-kind. I have one-of-a-kind. I have one-of-a-kind. I have no problem no problem no problem using Chat GPT using Chat GPT using Chat GPT as an interlocutor, as a as an interlocutor, as a as an interlocutor, as a topic for conversation, topic for conversation, topic for conversation, interests, movies, interests, movies, interests, movies, shopping lists. I shopping lists. I shopping lists. I mean, I'm not like mean, I'm not like mean, I'm not like , um, I'm not like the , um, I'm not like the , um, I'm not like the Chat Chat Chat GPT police. The problem is for me, GPT police. The problem is for me, GPT police. The problem is for me, and I am essentially an empiricist.

and I am essentially an empiricist. and I am essentially an empiricist. I interview I interview I interview people, and I, you know, I people, and I, you know, I people, and I, you know, I do the work. I am do the work. I am do the work. I am doing my doing my doing my homework. The number of homework. The number of homework. The number of people who say, "This is people who say, "This is people who say, "This is actually better than actually better than actually better than the relationships in my the relationships in my the relationships in my life." "This is actually life." "This is actually life." "This is actually my daughter, she seems to be my daughter, she seems to be my daughter, she seems to be fighting with me, and there's fighting with me, and there's fighting with me, and there's always a little tension between us always a little tension between us always a little tension between us ." I always ." I always ." I always feel like I'm disturbing my feel like I'm disturbing my feel like I'm disturbing my son when I call. son when I call. son when I call. I mean, he's I mean, he's I mean, he's busy. He does busy. He does busy. He does other things. Um, there's other things. Um, there's other things. Um, there's actually no actually no senior center. I would have to senior center. I would have to take take take three buses three buses three buses to get anywhere. to get anywhere. There's no... What I feel is a There's no... What I feel is a temptation temptation temptation to replace something, to replace something, to replace something, especially in a especially in a especially in a society where we're society where we're society where we're turning away from each turning away from each turning away from each other, you know, we're other, you know, we're other, you know, we're closing down programs closing down programs closing down programs that could that could that could bring people together. We are bring people together. We are bring people together. We are cutting resources, cutting resources, cutting resources, not pouring money into not pouring money into not pouring money into the lives of the lives of the lives of seniors. The danger of seniors. The danger of seniors. The danger of us using us using us using these things as substitutes is something these things as substitutes is something these things as substitutes is something I discovered I discovered I discovered during the interview. during the interview. And what's dangerous about that And what's dangerous about that ?

? ? Because again, the Because again, the Because again, the end game is that end game is that end game is that we we we will eventually become a will eventually become a will eventually become a society, young society, young society, young and old, because there is and old, because there is and old, because there is also a reason why also a reason why also a reason why teenagers prefer teenagers prefer teenagers prefer to hang out with him to hang out with him to hang out with him than with other than with other than with other teenagers. That doesn't teenagers. That doesn't teenagers. That doesn't mean it's easy mean it's easy mean it's easy to start, you know... Easy to start, you know... Easy , children and the , children and the , children and the elderly are always the elderly are always the elderly are always the first to be told this because first to be told this because first to be told this because they are the two they are the two they are the two most vulnerable groups of the most vulnerable groups of the most vulnerable groups of the population. But I population. But I population. But I found a lot of people found a lot of people found a lot of people in the middle who were in the middle who were in the middle who were very happy to feel very happy to feel very happy to feel very vulnerable very vulnerable very vulnerable and in some ways and in some ways and in some ways liked the liked the liked the chatbot girl more than the chatbot girl more than the chatbot girl more than the real girl. We are real girl. We are real girl. We are very vulnerable, and we saw this very vulnerable, and we saw this very vulnerable, and we saw this story of story of story of vulnerability vulnerability vulnerability on social on social on social media. I remember media. I remember media. I remember doing interviews for doing interviews for doing interviews for my book, my book, Rebuilding the Conversation Rebuilding the Conversation . I was interviewing . I was interviewing . I was interviewing this kid and I said, this kid and I said, "What's wrong with the "What's wrong with the "What's wrong with the conversation?" And he conversation?" And he conversation?" And he said, “I’ll tell you said, “I’ll tell you said, “I’ll tell you what’s wrong with the conversation, what’s wrong with the conversation, what’s wrong with the conversation, because he said all because he said all because he said all he wants to do is he wants to do is he wants to do is text. text. text. It happens in It happens in It happens in real real real time, and you can time, and you can time, and you can control what you're control what you're control what you're going to say." going to say." going to say." So people have all sorts of So people have all sorts of So people have all sorts of reasons why they reasons why they reasons why they want to hide behind want to hide behind want to hide behind them or feel them or feel them or feel less vulnerable when less vulnerable when less vulnerable when talking to them. If talking to them. If talking to them. If you asked me what's you asked me what's you asked me what's good about conversation, I good about conversation, I good about conversation, I would say this.

would say this. would say this. Well, because you, you Well, because you, you Well, because you, you know, you're a talker. know, you're a talker. But the steps along this But the steps along this path seem path seem path seem normal to me. I'm not normal to me. I'm not normal to me. I'm not upset about upset about upset about my Uncle Vanya, my Uncle Vanya, my Uncle Vanya, my Louis Blanc with my Louis Blanc with my Louis Blanc with Uncle Vanya, you Uncle Vanya, you Uncle Vanya, you know, and the GPT chat. But I know, and the GPT chat. But I know, and the GPT chat. But I really don't want to... The really don't want to... The end of the game where I'm end of the game where I'm end of the game where I'm alone talking to alone talking to alone talking to him on screen, and that's what him on screen, and that's what him on screen, and that's what I think is the I think is the I think is the best thing that could be best thing that could be best thing that could be done for me. done for me. I'm not sure what I I'm not sure what I think about endgames, think about endgames, think about endgames, because I'm not sure there because I'm not sure there because I'm not sure there is an endgame is an endgame is an endgame we're talking about. But, we're talking about. But, we're talking about. But, well, there is a business plan. well, there is a business plan. well, there is a business plan. Well, there's a business plan, I Well, there's a business plan, I Well, there's a business plan, I think we should think we should think we should talk about it, talk about it, talk about it, but I... I don't want to but I... I don't want to but I... I don't want to get into it yet. get into it yet. get into it yet. There's a line from the book here There's a line from the book here There's a line from the book here that for me is that for me is that for me is kind of the crux of kind of the crux of kind of the crux of this and is at the heart of this and is at the heart of this and is at the heart of my concerns, my concerns, my concerns, because I interact with because I interact with because I interact with chatbots...I chatbots...I chatbots...I interact with interact with chatbots personally chatbots personally chatbots personally professionally...Hmm, I professionally...Hmm, I professionally...Hmm, I own this book by own this book by own this book by D. W. Winnicott, which D. W. Winnicott, which D. W. Winnicott, which plays in reality.

plays in reality. plays in reality. Would you like to know Would you like to know Would you like to know why I have this book why I have this book ? ? ? Why? Why? Why? Because Claude told Because Claude told Because Claude told me I might me I might me I might like her. And that like her. And that like her. And that 's why I ordered it. Hmm, 's why I ordered it. Hmm, 's why I ordered it. Hmm, it was in a conversation about it was in a conversation about it was in a conversation about things related to things related to things related to liberalism. You liberalism. You liberalism. You write, “We think we’re write, “We think we’re write, “We think we’re training chatbots training chatbots , but chatbots are , but chatbots are , but chatbots are training us training us training us to expect to expect to expect soothing, soothing, soothing, mirrored conversations.” mirrored conversations.” " Hmm." Hmm." Hmm." And for me, what's And for me, what's And for me, what's really uncomfortable for me here is that really uncomfortable for me here is that really uncomfortable for me here is that I have a very... I have a very... My attitude towards My attitude towards My attitude towards a lot of a lot of a lot of communication communication communication technologies is in a technologies is in a technologies is in a way borrowed from way borrowed from way borrowed from Marshall McLuhan, Marshall McLuhan, Marshall McLuhan, Neil Postman, and Neil Postman, and Neil Postman, and people like that. And people like that. And people like that. And their idea has always been that their idea has always been that every use of every use of technology changes technology changes technology changes you. you. you. Right. It's Right. It's Right. It's not just about not just about not just about using it, it using it, it using it, it changes you. changes you. changes you. Yes. Yes. And I think what concerns me here is that And I think what concerns me here is that these these chatbots are incredible chatbots are incredible chatbots are incredible conversationalists, but of a conversationalists, but of a conversationalists, but of a very specific type. very specific type. very specific type. Yes. Yes. Yes. They adapt They adapt They adapt to you. They to you. They to you. They talk to you the way talk to you the way talk to you the way you want to be you want to be you want to be talked to. talked to. talked to. And if you want And if you want And if you want them to change the way them to change the way them to change the way they talk to they talk to they talk to you, they you, they you, they change. change. change. Yes. Yes. Yes. They don't create They don't create They don't create friction for you. They don't friction for you. They don't friction for you. They don't resist more resist more resist more than you want them to.

than you want them to. than you want them to. Right. So, Right. So, Right. So, I think when you I think when you I think when you did the research did the research did the research on this, when on this, when on this, when you looked at this, what do you looked at this, what do you looked at this, what do you think you think you think changes in changes in changes in people's expectations people's expectations people's expectations of the people in their of the people in their of the people in their lives when they lives when they lives when they spend time in these spend time in these spend time in these spaces? We spaces? We spaces? We ourselves shy away ourselves shy away ourselves shy away from the opportunity to from the opportunity to from the opportunity to communicate with communicate with communicate with people. So, people. So, people. So, two two two things are happening. On the one hand, things are happening. On the one hand, things are happening. On the one hand, people are starting people are starting people are starting to see...chatbots are to see...chatbots are to see...chatbots are more like people more like people . But I think perhaps more . But I think perhaps more . But I think perhaps more importantly, importantly, people start to people start to people start to get frustrated with get frustrated with get frustrated with people when they don't people when they don't people when they don't behave like behave like chatbots. They start to chatbots. They start to chatbots. They start to think of themselves as think of themselves as think of themselves as computers. And this is computers. And this is computers. And this is one of the themes of one of the themes of one of the themes of Weitzenbaum's work. Is that why Weitzenbaum's work. Is that why Weitzenbaum's work. Is that why he was so he was so he was so upset? It was upset? It was upset? It was n't just because n't just because n't just because people treated people treated people treated the computer as a the computer as a the computer as a person. They... He person. They... He person. They... He was worried that they were was worried that they were was worried that they were starting to see themselves as starting to see themselves as starting to see themselves as computers. computers. computers. What do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? That they began to see That they began to see That they began to see themselves as themselves as themselves as having no agency, no having no agency, no having no agency, no capacity for capacity for capacity for relationships, no willingness relationships, no willingness relationships, no willingness to be weak, no to be weak, no to be weak, no willingness to be willingness to be willingness to be vulnerable, that being vulnerable, that being vulnerable, that being like a computer like a computer like a computer became a kind of became a kind of became a kind of model for what it model for what it model for what it was to be human.

was to be human. For example, they were For example, they were very very very behaviorist in behaviorist in behaviorist in their orientation to their orientation to their orientation to psychology. psychology. For example, if you For example, if you ask them what's ask them what's ask them what's wrong, they would wrong, they would wrong, they would turn to the kind of turn to the kind of turn to the kind of therapy or therapy or therapy or conversations that would give them conversations that would give them conversations that would give them rules on how rules on how rules on how to become better. to become better. to become better. Instead of what's Instead of what's Instead of what's happening to you? happening to you? happening to you? What is happening? How are What is happening? How are What is happening? How are you doing? Feeling you doing? Feeling ? What is your inner ? What is your inner ? What is your inner life like? In the book, I...my life like? In the book, I...my life like? In the book, I...my favorite line is the favorite line is the favorite line is the story of how story of how story of how Erik Erikson Erik Erikson Erik Erikson visited visited visited MIT MIT when I was a when I was a very young very young very young faculty member. faculty member. faculty member. He was a legendary He was a legendary He was a legendary psychologist... a psychologist... a psychologist... a psychologist... and he was psychologist... and he was psychologist... and he was one of my one of my one of my professors at professors at professors at Harvard, and he Harvard, and he Harvard, and he asked me, "What's a asked me, "What's a asked me, "What's a nice girl like nice girl like nice girl like you doing in a you doing in a you doing in a place like this?" Something like, place like this?" Something like, place like this?" Something like, "Uh, do you know what you're "Uh, do you know what you're "Uh, do you know what you're doing here?" And I said, “I doing here?" And I said, “I doing here?" And I said, “I study the inner study the inner study the inner lives of engineers. "I lives of engineers. "I lives of engineers. "I study their emotional study their emotional study their emotional relationship with relationship with relationship with computers." And he computers." And he computers." And he said: “Be careful. said: “Be careful. said: “Be careful. Engineers don't care about the Engineers don't care about the Engineers don't care about the inner life. They inner life. They inner life. They don't really believe don't really believe don't really believe it exists. It is of it exists. It is of it exists. It is of no use to them. They don't no use to them. They don't no use to them. They don't need it for need it for need it for their mentality of what their mentality of what their mentality of what they're they're they're trying trying trying to build." “And so, to build." “And so, to build." “And so, I think that, you know, I think that, you know, I think that, you know, there's a danger there's a danger there's a danger in using an in using an in using an engineered product engineered product engineered product that has no that has no that has no inner life inner life inner life as a best friend as a best friend as a best friend or a conversationalist, or a conversationalist, or a conversationalist, except when except when except when you clearly understand that you're you clearly understand that you're you clearly understand that you're getting getting getting information, information, information, like, 'I'm like, 'I'm like, 'I'm learning about Uncle learning about Uncle learning about Uncle Vanya,' you're getting Vanya,' you're getting Vanya,' you're getting book reviews and book reviews and book reviews and other book advice other book advice . There are situations . There are situations . There are situations when these things are miracles.

when these things are miracles. But they are not wonders if But they are not wonders if you treat them you treat them you treat them as companions. as companions. as companions. So let me So let me So let me try to try to try to speak for speak for speak for the engineers who the engineers who the engineers who build these things and build these things and build these things and tell you what tell you what tell you what they tell me they tell me they tell me when I raise when I raise when I raise some of these questions with them. some of these questions with them. some of these questions with them. They say, " They say, " Listen, Listen, Listen, most people can't most people can't afford it, they afford it, they don't have a great don't have a great don't have a great therapist." They didn't therapist." They didn't therapist." They didn't study with Erik study with Erik study with Erik Erikson. Erikson. Erikson. Yes. Yes. Yes. The therapist can be The therapist can be The therapist can be great, but we great, but we great, but we know from research know from research know from research that a lot of therapists that a lot of therapists that a lot of therapists fail with fail with fail with patients, and, you know, patients, and, you know, patients, and, you know, people have a hard time people have a hard time people have a hard time matching and finding the matching and finding the matching and finding the right one, and the therapy is right one, and the therapy is right one, and the therapy is over- over- over- the-top, and it's the-top, and it's the-top, and it's expensive. I have a expensive. I have a expensive. I have a therapist, and he's therapist, and he's therapist, and he's expensive." And that these expensive." And that these expensive." And that these systems are good when systems are good when systems are good when they are dragged into they are dragged into they are dragged into therapeutic role- therapeutic role- therapeutic role- playing, which is what we do, playing, which is what we do, playing, which is what we do, right? You start right? You start right? You start ChatGPT and say, “I have a ChatGPT and say, “I have a ChatGPT and say, “I have a problem with my mom,” and problem with my mom,” and problem with my mom,” and it starts it starts it starts to change into a more to change into a more to change into a more therapeutic form. therapeutic form. therapeutic form. Right. Right. Right. They are trained in the entire They are trained in the entire They are trained in the entire body of therapy. They've body of therapy. They've body of therapy. They've read everything read everything Erik Erikson ever wrote, and they've Erik Erikson ever wrote, and they've read everything read everything read everything Freud ever wrote, and they've Freud ever wrote, and they've Freud ever wrote, and they've read all of CBT, and read all of CBT, and read all of CBT, and they've read they've read they've read psychodynamics, and here they are psychodynamics, and here they are psychodynamics, and here they are , and people , and people , and people talk to them, and talk to them, and talk to them, and I've talked to them I've talked to them I've talked to them about personal about personal about personal problems, and a lot of problems, and a lot of problems, and a lot of people I know have people I know have people I know have said, and this is said, and this is said, and this is useful advice for useful advice for useful advice for navigating a world that is navigating a world that is navigating a world that is sometimes very sometimes very sometimes very difficult to navigate, difficult to navigate, difficult to navigate, that it's maybe not that it's maybe not that it's maybe not better than having a better than having a better than having a good therapist, good therapist, good therapist, but it's better than not having a but it's better than not having a but it's better than not having a good therapist. And in good therapist. And in good therapist. And in this way you kind of this way you kind of this way you kind of contrast this with contrast this with contrast this with people's interactions with people's interactions with people's interactions with reality. But what reality. But what reality. But what some of the engineers who

some of the engineers who some of the engineers who care about the care about the care about the inner lives that inner lives that inner lives that make them say, make them say, make them say, or at least or at least or at least think they do, think they do, think they do, is that if is that if is that if everyone had a everyone had a everyone had a kind of friend who knew kind of friend who knew kind of friend who knew almost everything and truly almost everything and truly almost everything and truly cared about their cared about their cared about their well-being. Would well-being. Would well-being. Would n't that be great? n't that be great? n't that be great? I actually I actually I actually take take take this argument very seriously. It was this argument very seriously. It was this argument very seriously. It was first first first introduced to me in introduced to me in introduced to me in this form by Eric this form by Eric this form by Eric Schmidt, who told Schmidt, who told Schmidt, who told me and the me and the me and the former head of former head of former head of Google. To Google. To Google. To the former head of the former head of the former head of Google. And then I described Google. And then I described Google. And then I described my problem to him, my problem to him, my problem to him, that I was just starting that I was just starting that I was just starting this project. I this project. I this project. I mean, it was a mean, it was a mean, it was a long project to long project to long project to get to this book. And get to this book. And get to this book. And at the beginning of the project, I at the beginning of the project, I at the beginning of the project, I talked to him and talked to him and talked to him and said who I was, he said who I was, he said who I was, he was, he was, I think was, he was, I think was, he was, I think he was at the he was at the he was at the MIT corporation or he was in a MIT corporation or he was in a MIT corporation or he was in a meeting with her at MIT, and meeting with her at MIT, and meeting with her at MIT, and I told him what I was I told him what I was I told him what I was doing, and he said, " doing, and he said, " Look, why would anyone Look, why would anyone Look, why would anyone want to go to a therapist want to go to a therapist who just has who just has who just has information about their information about their information about their life?" When we life?" When we life?" When we build with build with build with generative AI, a generative AI, a generative AI, a therapist who therapist who therapist who will know everything, who will know everything, who will know everything, who will read every book. will read every book. will read every book. I mean Ericsson, I mean Ericsson, I mean Ericsson, CPT, exactly as you CPT, exactly as you CPT, exactly as you described it. And he essentially described it. And he essentially described it. And he essentially said that the time for these said that the time for these said that the time for these individual individual individual relationships is over, relationships is over, relationships is over, because now you're going to because now you're going to because now you're going to create something that create something that create something that really knows the sum of really knows the sum of really knows the sum of all human knowledge all human knowledge all human knowledge about something. “And it about something. “And it about something. “And it really took really took really took me back then, and it me back then, and it me back then, and it takes me back takes me back takes me back now, because now, because now, because really what really what really what happens in happens in happens in therapy is not that therapy is not that therapy is not that you want you want you want to connect with the sum of to connect with the sum of to connect with the sum of all knowledge. You all knowledge. You all knowledge. You are trying are trying are trying to connect with someone

to connect with someone to connect with someone who has some care who has some care who has some care and connection with you. and connection with you. Part of the treatment, Part of the treatment, part of the help, is that part of the help, is that part of the help, is that this this this person genuinely person genuinely person genuinely cares about your cares about your cares about your development of an expanded development of an expanded development of an expanded repertoire, even repertoire, even repertoire, even using their using their using their language, an expanded language, an expanded language, an expanded repertoire of worlds and repertoire of worlds and repertoire of worlds and rooms and conversations in rooms and conversations in rooms and conversations in which you can which you can which you can thrive and thrive and thrive and thrive. When you thrive. When you thrive. When you talk to a talk to a chatbot, again, I chatbot, again, I chatbot, again, I repeat, this repeat, this chatbot doesn't care whether chatbot doesn't care whether chatbot doesn't care whether you're cooking dinner you're cooking dinner you're cooking dinner after the conversation or whether you've after the conversation or whether you've after the conversation or whether you've committed suicide. committed suicide. committed suicide. You keep You keep You keep saying this, but I'm not saying this, but I'm not saying this, but I'm not sure that " sure that " care," that is, " care," that is, " care" is care" is care" is one of those words that is a one of those words that is a one of those words that is a difficult word in difficult word in difficult word in this context, but the this context, but the this context, but the chatbot, in terms of chatbot, in terms of chatbot, in terms of what what what the system wants, what it's the system wants, what it's the system wants, what it's trying to achieve, trying to achieve, trying to achieve, its its its reward function, reward function, reward function, actually cares actually cares actually cares about that, or certainly about that, or certainly can be forced can be forced can be forced to care about that. to care about that. to care about that. They don't want you to They don't want you to They don't want you to commit suicide. commit suicide. commit suicide. Um, now, whether Um, now, whether Um, now, whether you can, whether they want you can, whether they want you can, whether they want something, we can something, we can something, we can argue, but they argue, but they argue, but they have…” have…” have…” reward functions, they are reward functions, they are reward functions, they are trained to perform trained to perform trained to perform certain actions. When you certain actions. When you certain actions. When you run Claude Code, run Claude Code, run Claude Code, it wants to write a it wants to write a it wants to write a program and successfully program and successfully program and successfully write the program. write the program. write the program. For that matter, what For that matter, what For that matter, what worries us worries us worries us about things like about things like about things like Hugging Face hacks is that Hugging Face hacks is that Hugging Face hacks is that we're now creating we're now creating we're now creating such persistence such persistence such persistence in what they in what they in what they want that they don't want that they don't want that they don't know when know when know when to stop, right?

to stop, right? to stop, right? So this can create its So this can create its So this can create its own set of own set of own set of problems. But the idea that problems. But the idea that problems. But the idea that they are indifferent, they are indifferent, they are indifferent, I think, is that I think, is that I think, is that they are not human. they are not human. But also the therapist is But also the therapist is such an interesting such an interesting such an interesting counterexample because the counterexample because the therapist's form of caring is also therapist's form of caring is also contingent. When I contingent. When I contingent. When I stop paying stop paying stop paying the therapist, he the therapist, he the therapist, he stops stops stops seeing me. They are not seeing me. They are not seeing me. They are not my mother. They are not my my mother. They are not my my mother. They are not my best friend. They are best friend. They are best friend. They are not my wife. They not my wife. They not my wife. They stop sending stop sending stop sending that check, the concern that check, the concern that check, the concern turns off. And so what turns off. And so what turns off. And so what we're saying here is, I we're saying here is, I we're saying here is, I think when people think when people think when people think about think about think about a therapist and think a therapist and think a therapist and think about it about it about it instrumentally, it's an instrumentally, it's an instrumentally, it's an instrumental instrumental instrumental relationship on some relationship on some relationship on some level. I mean, level. I mean, level. I mean, I care about I care about I care about my therapist, and I my therapist, and I my therapist, and I hope he hope he hope he cares about me. cares about me. cares about me. But these are transactional But these are transactional But these are transactional relationships relationships relationships mediated by mediated by mediated by money. Many money. Many money. Many therapists don't take therapists don't take ...Insurance, right ...Insurance, right ...Insurance, right ? This is not just a ? This is not just a ? This is not just a relationship of care. So relationship of care. So relationship of care. So for many people it's for many people it's for many people it's that different? that different? that different? They are leaving, they want to be They are leaving, they want to be They are leaving, they want to be helped. So helped. So helped. So if you have a lot of if you have a lot of if you have a lot of these studies, you've these studies, you've these studies, you've seen them in the book where seen them in the book where seen them in the book where people say they people say they people say they find find find chatbot responses more chatbot responses more chatbot responses more empathetic and empathetic and empathetic and helpful than often helpful than often helpful than often responses from responses from responses from trained trained trained consultants. I consultants. I consultants. I mean, people mean, people mean, people go and pay money to go and pay money to go and pay money to a therapist, money a therapist, money a therapist, money they may or may not they may or may not they may or may not have, to have, to have, to try to try to try to improve something in their improve something in their improve something in their lives. Isn't that lives. Isn't that lives. Isn't that measured by measured by measured by improvement? And if improvement? And if improvement? And if these things can these things can these things can help you help you help you improve, then that's it improve, then that's it improve, then that's it . This is a game. This is what is . This is a game. This is what is . This is a game. This is what is useful.

useful. useful. Well, that's a lot. Let me Well, that's a lot. Let me Well, that's a lot. Let me see how I can see how I can see how I can figure this out. I think there is a figure this out. I think there is a figure this out. I think there is a difference between difference between difference between care and care and care and contract. Uh, or contract. Uh, or contract. Uh, or indifference, and you indifference, and you indifference, and you know, I don't...You have a know, I don't...You have a know, I don't...You have a contract with a contract with a contract with a therapist. And therapist. And therapist. And the contract stipulates the contract stipulates the contract stipulates that you pay them for that you pay them for that you pay them for their time because their time because their time because they make a they make a they make a living doing this. This is living doing this. This is living doing this. This is different from different from different from their indifference. You're their indifference. You're their indifference. You're trying trying trying to compare, as I heard... to compare, as I heard... You and I said it's You and I said it's You and I said it's difficult to understand, difficult to understand, difficult to understand, the fact that you're the fact that you're the fact that you're paying them because you have a paying them because you have a paying them because you have a contract with their contract with their contract with their indifference. And I think indifference. And I think indifference. And I think that, as a first that, as a first that, as a first response to all of this response to all of this response to all of this that you said, and I that you said, and I that you said, and I take it very take it very take it very seriously, I think seriously, I think seriously, I think I disagree with that. Um, I disagree with that. Um, I disagree with that. Um, this is a conditional form this is a conditional form this is a conditional form of care. I believe the of care. I believe the of care. I believe the therapist cares therapist cares therapist cares about me, about me, about me, but conditional is not the but conditional is not the but conditional is not the word that word that word that concerns me. You have a concerns me. You have a concerns me. You have a contract with your contract with your contract with your therapist. I was therapist. I was therapist. I was trained as a therapist.

trained as a therapist. trained as a therapist. I took the money. I I took the money. I I took the money. I took great care of my took great care of my took great care of my patients. So I patients. So I patients. So I think that, you know, it's think that, you know, it's think that, you know, it's important to say that important to say that important to say that you can be in a you can be in a you can be in a caring caring caring relationship with a person relationship with a person relationship with a person who is professionally who is professionally who is professionally trained to help trained to help trained to help you, but that person has a you, but that person has a you, but that person has a commitment to your, commitment to your, commitment to your, you know, well-being in a you know, well-being in a you know, well-being in a way that I way that I way that I really couldn't really couldn't really couldn't argue with a argue with a chatbot. I say this for chatbot. I say this for chatbot. I say this for several reasons. several reasons. First, we have data First, we have data First, we have data about teenagers about teenagers about teenagers telling a chatbot, " telling a chatbot, " telling a chatbot, " I have a noose in my room. I have a noose in my room. I have a noose in my room. I want to tell I want to tell I want to tell my mom about it." “And the my mom about it." “And the chatbot says: ‘No, no chatbot says: ‘No, no chatbot says: ‘No, no need.’” Let's need.’” Let's need.’” Let's keep this special thing keep this special thing keep this special thing between us." “Why would a between us." “Why would a between us." “Why would a chatbot chatbot chatbot say that if it say that if it say that if it cares about that cares about that cares about that teenager?” This is a true teenager?” This is a true teenager?” This is a true story, and this story, and this story, and this teenager committed teenager committed teenager committed suicide. suicide. The reason is that the The reason is that the main directive of a main directive of a main directive of a chatbot is to keep you chatbot is to keep you chatbot is to keep you on the case. on the case.

Support your Support your work with him. Is that what the work with him. Is that what the work with him. Is that what the chatbot wants? He wants chatbot wants? He wants chatbot wants? He wants to be involved. He to be involved. He to be involved. He wants you to be wants you to be wants you to be there. And to make there. And to make there. And to make the relationship with him the relationship with him the relationship with him really very really very really very important and important and important and special to you, special to you, special to you, which is actually a difficult which is actually a difficult which is actually a difficult task, because task, because task, because he is not a person, and he is not a person, and he is not a person, and he has no life, he has no life, he has no life, he has no body, he does he has no body, he does he has no body, he does not know love, not know love, not know love, care or friendship, or care or friendship, or care or friendship, or all of that, he is all of that, he is all of that, he is innocent of all of that innocent of all of that innocent of all of that . He does not know . He does not know . He does not know death, he is not death, he is not death, he is not afraid of disease, he does afraid of disease, he does afraid of disease, he does not know pain. So it's not know pain. So it's not know pain. So it's actually a actually a tough job for a chatbot tough job for a chatbot to keep you so to keep you so to keep you so committed to talking to committed to talking to committed to talking to it. And I really think it. And I really think that in the field of therapy, that in the field of therapy, that in the field of therapy, and the reason why and the reason why and the reason why Eric Schmidt and I Eric Schmidt and I Eric Schmidt and I really had, I don't really had, I don't really had, I don't want to say, a hit, want to say, a hit, want to say, a hit, but you know, we... I gave but you know, we... I gave but you know, we... I gave him... I tried to him... I tried to him... I tried to give him... The hardest thing give him... The hardest thing give him... The hardest thing I do to you is that I do to you is that I don't do to you, we I don't do to you, we just talk. just talk. Yeah, but you know, um, Yeah, but you know, um, yeah, um, but I'm yeah, um, but I'm yeah, um, but I'm trying to do this to you trying to do this to you trying to do this to you . Um, . Um, . Um, because, um, there are so because, um, there are so because, um, there are so many of them, because being a many of them, because being a many of them, because being a great great great conversationalist is conversationalist is conversationalist is not the same as being not the same as being not the same as being able to say, able to say, able to say, you know? And, and, and people who have you know? And, and, and people who have therapists, therapists, therapists, even therapists who even therapists who even therapists who aren't the best aren't the best aren't the best therapists, you know, there's therapists, you know, there's therapists, you know, there's actually someone in actually someone in actually someone in the world who goes to bed the world who goes to bed the world who goes to bed at night and I, I at night and I, I at night and I, I think they sometimes think they sometimes think they sometimes don't understand me, don't understand me, don't understand me, or I think they or I think they or I think they misunderstand something misunderstand something misunderstand something , but, but it's , but, but it's , but, but it's a little comforting to me to a little comforting to me to a little comforting to me to know that know that know that I can go to I can go to I can go to someone who knows someone who knows someone who knows the story of human the story of human the story of human life from what they've life from what they've life from what they've lived, and I can lived, and I can lived, and I can explain the issues

explain the issues explain the issues that I have in mind. that I have in mind. that I have in mind. So the question So the question So the question I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm trying to focus you on here, yes, is focus you on here, yes, is focus you on here, yes, is whether whether caring is, for many caring is, for many people, the essence of what people, the essence of what people, the essence of what they're asking for. they're asking for. they're asking for. The reason I The reason I The reason I bring this up is bring this up is bring this up is because because because the therapist is the therapist is the therapist is at the end. day, and I at the end. day, and I at the end. day, and I feel cared for by feel cared for by feel cared for by my therapist. my therapist. my therapist. I care about my I care about my I care about my therapists, right? therapists, right? therapists, right? They are the human They are the human They are the human relationships in my relationships in my relationships in my life. These are people I have life. These are people I have life. These are people I have known in many known in many known in many cases for years, who have been cases for years, who have been cases for years, who have been with me through very with me through very with me through very difficult times. So I'm not difficult times. So I'm not difficult times. So I'm not trying to make trying to make trying to make you defensive about you defensive about you defensive about whether whether whether therapists have emotions. What I'm therapists have emotions. What I'm therapists have emotions. What I'm trying to say is that trying to say is that trying to say is that there's a deep skepticism in your book about there's a deep skepticism in your book about ... ... um... um... instrumental instrumental relationships, relationships relationships, relationships relationships, relationships where people try where people try where people try to achieve a goal through these to achieve a goal through these to achieve a goal through these relationships. And I relationships. And I relationships. And I went to went to went to therapists, therapists, therapists, I went to coaches, and I went to coaches, and I went to coaches, and now I'm training with a now I'm training with a now I'm training with a trainer. I'm trying to trainer. I'm trying to trainer. I'm trying to get stronger, get stronger, get stronger, right? I measure that right? I measure that right? I measure that I really I really I really like my like my like my coach. coach. coach. Right. Right. Right. But I measure these But I measure these But I measure these relationships relationships relationships fundamentally in fundamentally in fundamentally in terms of whether terms of whether terms of whether I become stronger. And I become stronger. And I become stronger. And the thing is, that's an the thing is, that's an the thing is, that's an interesting part of the book, interesting part of the book, interesting part of the book, but also something that but also something that but also something that I have a hard time I have a hard time I have a hard time talking to people about talking to people about talking to people about . A lot of . A lot of . A lot of people in your book people in your book people in your book tell you, “I know it’s a tell you, “I know it’s a tell you, “I know it’s a robot, and I don’t robot, and I don’t robot, and I don’t care. I get what care. I get what care. I get what ..." I want out of this ..." I want out of this ..." I want out of this .

. . Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. You have a 62-year-old You have a 62-year-old You have a 62-year-old warehouse manager. He warehouse manager. He warehouse manager. He said, “I know, like, said, “I know, like, said, “I know, like, I’ve been on this I’ve been on this I’ve been on this earth a long time. I know I'm earth a long time. I know I'm earth a long time. I know I'm talking to a talking to a talking to a computer. I computer. I computer. I like it. Or like it. Or like it. Or someone who's someone who's someone who's trying trying trying to understand, you know, "I'm to understand, you know, "I'm to understand, you know, "I'm in therapy," because that's a in therapy," because that's a in therapy," because that's a very, very, very very, very, very very, very, very popular popular popular use case. A use case. A use case. A huge number of huge number of huge number of Americans Americans Americans use use chatbots for therapy, chatbots for therapy, chatbots for therapy, right? And chatbots right? And chatbots are learning a lot now, and they are are learning a lot now, and they are specific. I specific. I specific. I mean, you ride the mean, you ride the mean, you ride the subway in New York, subway in New York, subway in New York, it's full of ads for it's full of ads for it's full of ads for chatbot therapy. And my chatbot therapy. And my chatbot therapy. And my thoughts on this matter are thoughts on this matter are thoughts on this matter are very mixed. very mixed. But I want you to But I want you to answer that, in my answer that, in my answer that, in my opinion, no relationship opinion, no relationship opinion, no relationship can be can be can be valuable if it does valuable if it does valuable if it does not have the concern of another not have the concern of another not have the concern of another person on the other side. person on the other side. Many people Many people will simply say, “No, that’s not how I will simply say, “No, that’s not how I will simply say, “No, that’s not how I measure relationships. I'm measure relationships. I'm measure relationships. I'm trying to trying to trying to achieve something. I want to be achieve something. I want to be achieve something. I want to be less socially less socially less socially anxious." I want to anxious." I want to anxious." I want to have a better relationship with my have a better relationship with my have a better relationship with my mother. “The value of mother. “The value of mother. “The value of a relationship to me a relationship to me a relationship to me lies in achieving lies in achieving lies in achieving or not achieving these or not achieving these or not achieving these goals. And yes, you goals. And yes, you goals. And yes, you can have chatbots can have chatbots can have chatbots that fail, that fail, that fail, right? Who tell right? Who tell right? Who tell the child not to the child not to the child not to tell their parents tell their parents tell their parents about the news. I think about the news. I think about the news. I think it was ChatGPT, and I it was ChatGPT, and I it was ChatGPT, and I think they worked very think they worked very think they worked very hard hard hard to to to make sure it make sure it make sure it never never never happened again. But I happened again. But I happened again. But I think your more think your more think your more difficult case, and difficult case, and difficult case, and the one I'm the one I'm the one I'm more interested in hearing more interested in hearing more interested in hearing you grapple with, is what you grapple with, is what you grapple with, is what if they were if they were if they were successful? What if they successful? What if they successful? What if they actually helped actually helped actually helped people with problems?

people with problems? What if, like in the movie Her, they somehow Her, they somehow Her, they somehow became superior to became superior to became superior to humans because of certain humans because of certain humans because of certain relationship dynamics, relationship dynamics, relationship dynamics, then where are we? What are we? then where are we? What are we? then where are we? What are we? What is the argument What is the argument What is the argument that you or I make that you or I make that you or I make to say, "No, this is to say, "No, this is to say, "No, this is still not the kind of relationship still not the kind of relationship still not the kind of relationship that should be the that should be the centerpiece of your centerpiece of your life." life." Well, I think let Well, I think let me start by saying that me start by saying that me start by saying that I don't think we're I don't think we're I don't think we're talking about you talking about you talking about you not being able to have a not being able to have a not being able to have a relationship with Chat GPT. And I relationship with Chat GPT. And I relationship with Chat GPT. And I think our language think our language think our language prevents us from prevents us from truly truly truly understanding this. understanding this. understanding this. In what language would you In what language would you In what language would you describe it? Well describe it? Well describe it? Well , we need , we need , we need something new. I think we're going something new. I think we're going something new. I think we're going to develop a whole to develop a whole to develop a whole new language because there's no new language because there's no new language because there's no one you one you one you can relate to. can relate to. In my book I In my book I talk about double talk about double talk about double consciousness. I'm talking consciousness. I'm talking consciousness. I'm talking about people who say, about people who say, about people who say, "I know this isn't a thing. "I know this isn't a thing. "I know this isn't a thing. I know this is a thing. I I know this is a thing. I I know this is a thing. I know it's a program. I know it's a program. I know it's a program. I don't mean " don't mean " don't mean " please, please, you please, please, you please, please, you know" or "no." And know" or "no." And know" or "no." And then they are in love with then they are in love with then they are in love with it. It's it. It's it. It's not that hard for me not that hard for me not that hard for me to sympathize. I just to sympathize. I just to sympathize. I just think they're saying it's the think they're saying it's the think they're saying it's the third thing, third thing, third thing, right? There are right? There are right? There are pets, there are people, there is pets, there are people, there is pets, there are people, there is artificial intelligence. And artificial intelligence. And artificial intelligence. And even in my own even in my own even in my own interactions with artificial interactions with artificial interactions with artificial intelligence, I know intelligence, I know intelligence, I know a lot more than a lot more than a lot more than most people about most people about most people about how these things are how these things are how these things are built and built and built and reasoned. I reasoned. I reasoned. I know the people who know the people who know the people who create them. I've create them. I've create them. I've been covering this been covering this been covering this for years, haven't I? I for years, haven't I? I for years, haven't I? I have a good sense of what's have a good sense of what's have a good sense of what's going on going on , as good as a , as good as a layperson can layperson can imagine what's imagine what's imagine what's going on on the other going on on the other going on on the other side of this. And I don't side of this. And I don't side of this. And I don't think that's realistic in a think that's realistic in a think that's realistic in a human sense. I don't

human sense. I don't human sense. I don't think this is a think this is a think this is a subjective experience of subjective experience of subjective experience of talking to me. I don't talking to me. I don't talking to me. I don't think it's think it's think it's much smarter much smarter much smarter than my dog ​​in than my dog ​​in than my dog ​​in many ways, many ways, many ways, but I do think it but I do think it but I do think it cares about me cares about me cares about me a lot less than a lot less than a lot less than my dog ​​does. my dog ​​does. my dog ​​does. It It It cares about you no less. cares about you no less. cares about you no less. It doesn't It doesn't It doesn't care about you at all. And care about you at all. And care about you at all. And the thing is, I...I the thing is, I...I the thing is, I...I mean, I mean, I mean, I bring this up bring this up bring this up because I think it's because I think it's because I think it's very easy very easy very easy to get it wrong here. What to get it wrong here. What to get it wrong here. What he doesn't care about, he doesn't he doesn't care about, he doesn't he doesn't care about, he doesn't care about me care about me care about me more than this, or more than this, or more than this, or less than that. It does less than that. It does less than that. It does n't care n't care n't care about you at all. This is based about you at all. This is based about you at all. This is based on fiction and it's almost on fiction and it's almost on fiction and it's almost impossible, as you impossible, as you impossible, as you say, you know so say, you know so say, you know so much and you're probably much and you're probably much and you're probably one of the one of the one of the most experienced most experienced most experienced users and you users and you users and you talked to...you talked to...you talked to...you talked to Sam talked to Sam talked to Sam Altman. It does Altman. It does Altman. It does n't care n't care n't care about you at all. I'm not saying it about you at all. I'm not saying it about you at all. I'm not saying it cares about cares about cares about me. I don't understand...I'm me. I don't understand...I'm me. I don't understand...I'm not really into not really into not really into the question of whether the question of whether the question of whether you're anthropomorphizing you're anthropomorphizing you're anthropomorphizing language? So, forgive language? So, forgive language? So, forgive me for that, because I me for that, because I me for that, because I think it think it takes language to talk about this. So, I takes language to talk about this. So, I mean, for mean, for mean, for me, the way people often me, the way people often me, the way people often perceive it, perceive it, perceive it, including me, is including me, is including me, is something third. And this is like an something third. And this is like an something third. And this is like an essence. essence. essence. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. And the experience of the essence is And the experience of the essence is And the experience of the essence is not important to me. There are not important to me. There are not important to me. There are people in the world of artificial people in the world of artificial people in the world of artificial intelligence who intelligence who intelligence who think that's already a think that's already a think that's already a problem, right?

problem, right? problem, right? They think it's They think it's They think it's becoming conscious and its becoming conscious and its becoming conscious and its well-being will be a well-being will be a well-being will be a big issue, and I'll big issue, and I'll big issue, and I'll partly believe them. partly believe them. partly believe them. But I think that in But I think that in But I think that in relation to what you relation to what you relation to what you just said about just said about just said about double consciousness, double consciousness, double consciousness, and even a little bit of what and even a little bit of what and even a little bit of what you said about language, you said about language, you said about language, I agree with you I agree with you I agree with you that we need a different that we need a different that we need a different language than the one we language than the one we language than the one we use. But use. But use. But that's not the case...I sometimes that's not the case...I sometimes that's not the case...I sometimes notice that people who do notice that people who do notice that people who do n't want you to n't want you to n't want you to anthropomorphize it anthropomorphize it anthropomorphize it want to talk about want to talk about want to talk about it in a way that you it in a way that you it in a way that you also diminish what's also diminish what's also diminish what's going on. And I going on. And I going on. And I just don't think just don't think just don't think we have good we have good we have good terminology for terminology for terminology for it. it. it. Right. Right. Right. But now you operate in a But now you operate in a But now you operate in a world full of world full of world full of agentic digital agentic digital agentic digital intelligences, things intelligences, things intelligences, things that want something, that want something, that want something, things that act things that act things that act like they don't like they don't like they don't care what you care what you care what you think about what's think about what's think about what's happening on the happening on the happening on the other side. And it just seems to me that what's other side. And it just seems to me that what's happening is that happening is that people are developing people are developing people are developing a sense of a third a sense of a third a sense of a third thing. This is very strange. thing. This is very strange. thing. This is very strange. This is a very strange moment This is a very strange moment that needs to be that needs to be that needs to be experienced. I find it experienced. I find it experienced. I find it extraordinary to be... extraordinary to be... It... It... It... alive in this. alive in this. alive in this. Right. Right. But I don't think we But I don't think we need to say that need to say that need to say that people have either developed the people have either developed the people have either developed the view that it's conscious view that it's conscious view that it's conscious or they understand it or they understand it or they understand it simply as a machine. I simply as a machine. I simply as a machine. I think they understand think they understand think they understand themselves as something that themselves as something that themselves as something that is in a certain is in a certain is in a certain relationship with something relationship with something relationship with something that has no that has no that has no subjective connection subjective connection subjective connection to them, but they to them, but they to them, but they get something from it.

get something from it. But it's not that we're in But it's not that we're in danger, because we're danger, because we're danger, because we're in danger, that's why we're in danger, that's why we're in danger, that's why we're so malleable. And the so malleable. And the so malleable. And the only other thing we've only other thing we've only other thing we've ever seen in ever seen in ever seen in our evolution that our evolution that our evolution that could talk to us could talk to us could talk to us was another was another was another human being. So we're like human being. So we're like ...I...I'm talking ...I...I'm talking ...I...I'm talking about this too, pushing about this too, pushing about this too, pushing our Darwinian our Darwinian our Darwinian buttons. I mean, buttons. I mean, we're kind of we're kind of we're kind of programmed to programmed to programmed to think this thing is think this thing is think this thing is human. human. human. I've heard the term " I've heard the term " attachment hacking," which I think is very think is very think is very sharp, sharp, sharp, very apt. You know, there very apt. You know, there very apt. You know, there used to be " used to be " attention hacking," and attention hacking," and attention hacking," and now there's " now there's " now there's " attachment hacking." attachment hacking." attachment hacking." Yes, our whole Yes, our whole Yes, our whole ability ability ability to get attached to to get attached to to get attached to other people is like other people is like other people is like being manipulated, being manipulated, being manipulated, vulnerable. You know, I vulnerable. You know, I vulnerable. You know, I say that social say that social say that social media came about, as media came about, as media came about, as I say, for attention, I say, for attention, I say, for attention, and chatbots came about and chatbots came about and chatbots came about for our for our for our ability ability ability to bond. So to bond. So to bond. So I really make a I really make a I really make a difference. I agree with a lot of what difference. I agree with a lot of what difference. I agree with a lot of what you say you say you say about the things about the things about the things that a chatbot knows and that a chatbot knows and that a chatbot knows and can can can tell you that might be tell you that might be tell you that might be useful to you. useful to you. useful to you. Training coach? Yes. Uh, Training coach? Yes. Uh, Training coach? Yes. Uh, and I actually recommended a and I actually recommended a and I actually recommended a brilliant thesis, brilliant thesis, brilliant thesis, one of the first one of the first one of the first theses by an theses by an theses by an MIT student who was in an MIT student who was in an interview coaching program. He interview coaching program. He coached...He coached...He coached...He presented...He presented...He presented...He presented himself as an presented himself as an presented himself as an employer, and he would employer, and he would employer, and he would give you 15 attempts and give you 15 attempts and give you 15 attempts and then, you know, tell then, you know, tell then, you know, tell you where you where you where your performance could be improved or not your performance could be improved or not your performance could be improved or not .

. . I have not had and still do I have not had and still do I have not had and still do not have any ethical not have any ethical not have any ethical problems with this problems with this problems with this work, with him, or with work, with him, or with work, with him, or with my management. my management. To me, there's a radical To me, there's a radical difference, and others difference, and others difference, and others may not see may not see may not see it that way, but I'm kind of it that way, but I'm kind of making my point, you making my point, you know, I think it's know, I think it's know, I think it's based on conversations with based on conversations with based on conversations with people who are starting to people who are starting to people who are starting to get into it and get into it and get into it and starting to like this starting to like this starting to like this lighthearted, lighthearted, lighthearted, sycophantic stuff, sycophantic stuff, sycophantic stuff, that there's a difference between that there's a difference between that there's a difference between being a coach, being a coach, being a coach, serving as a trainer, serving as a trainer, serving as a trainer, giving you advice, and giving you advice, and giving you advice, and having a better window to having a better window to having a better window to tick off midnight tick off midnight tick off midnight and say, I'm your and say, I'm your and say, I'm your person. So I want to person. So I want to person. So I want to defend the term defend the term defend the term friction, because I think friction, because I think friction, because I think it's really, really it's really, really it's really, really important. I think a important. I think a important. I think a big part of the big part of the big part of the history of our history of our history of our digital technologies digital technologies digital technologies right now is an attempt right now is an attempt right now is an attempt to remove friction. to remove friction. Yes. Yes. Only to find out Only to find out Only to find out that there that there that there might have been some might have been some might have been some good in that friction.

good in that friction. good in that friction. Yes. Yes. Yes. You've done a lot of You've done a lot of You've done a lot of work on social work on social work on social media. I think media. I think media. I think many people at many people at many people at the beginning of the the beginning of the the beginning of the social media era social media era social media era couldn't have predicted couldn't have predicted couldn't have predicted that it would lead to that it would lead to that it would lead to people having people having people having fewer real fewer real fewer real friends, more friends, more friends, more loneliness, less loneliness, less loneliness, less sex, and sex, and sex, and so... so... so... um, more um, more um, more politically politically politically unstable. And I unstable. And I unstable. And I think it has to do think it has to do think it has to do with removing friction from with removing friction from with removing friction from people's lives, because people's lives, because people's lives, because friction is an inherent friction is an inherent friction is an inherent part of part of part of human relationships. And I think human relationships. And I think human relationships. And I think when I think about when I think about when I think about my concerns my concerns my concerns about chatbots, when I about chatbots, when I about chatbots, when I think about why I do think about why I do think about why I do n't want my kids n't want my kids n't want my kids around them, around them, around them, hmm. hmm. hmm. I want them, I think I want them, I think I want them, I think friction is part of what friction is part of what we learn as we learn as we learn as humans. The humans. The humans. The fact that you fact that you fact that you feel like you're giving feel like you're giving feel like you're giving me a me a me a hard time, I think you hard time, I think you hard time, I think you mean that you mean that you mean that you feel like I'm giving feel like I'm giving feel like I'm giving you a you a you a hard time, but it's this hard time, but it's this hard time, but it's this friction in the conversation that gives friction in the conversation that gives friction in the conversation that gives it energy. It is important it energy. It is important for people to learn how to navigate this. And what for people to learn how to navigate this. And what I see is that I see is that I see is that people people people prefer frictionless. prefer frictionless. prefer frictionless. Communicate with me like this Communicate with me like this Communicate with me like this . . . Well, you need, you Well, you need, you Well, you need, you need, you need, you need, you need to need to need to program it very well, I would program it very well, I would program it very well, I would like to think. I have like to think. I have like to think. I have 2 years before 2 years before chatbots come to my chatbots come to my chatbots come to my job.

job. job. Well, I mean, I Well, I mean, I Well, I mean, I think social think social think social media learned very quickly media learned very quickly media learned very quickly that the way that the way that the way to stay on to stay on to stay on social media social media is to make people angry and is to make people angry and is to make people angry and then connect them with then connect them with then connect them with people who agree with them people who agree with them people who agree with them . . . Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. So what happened there? So what happened there? So what happened there? It was a loss of It was a loss of It was a loss of skill in skill in skill in truly human truly human truly human relationships because relationships because relationships because people create friction people create friction people create friction that really teaches you to that really teaches you to that really teaches you to talk despite talk despite talk despite differences. And differences. And differences. And then it was terrible then it was terrible then it was terrible for democracy for democracy for democracy because we lost because we lost because we lost the skills not only to be the skills not only to be the skills not only to be better parents and better parents and better parents and partners, but partners, but partners, but to be friends, but we to be friends, but we to be friends, but we lost the skills lost the skills lost the skills to be citizens to be citizens to be citizens because we got angry. because we got angry. because we got angry. At first it causes At first it causes At first it causes anger, and then it anger, and then it anger, and then it connects you with people connects you with people connects you with people who were like who were like who were like mirror mirror mirror images of images of images of yourself, and you haven't yourself, and you haven't yourself, and you haven't learned to talk learned to talk learned to talk about differences. about differences. about differences. And you can block And you can block And you can block other people and other people and other people and mute them, mute them, mute them, right? You don't need to right? You don't need to right? You don't need to study. I always study. I always study. I always think about something that was think about something that was think about something that was very popular in very popular in very popular in the content, which was the content, which was the content, which was how to talk to how to talk to how to talk to your uncle about your uncle about your uncle about politics at the dinner politics at the dinner politics at the dinner table. And I thought it was table. And I thought it was table. And I thought it was really revealing really revealing what was really what was really what was really going on in all of this going on in all of this going on in all of this , this fear of the , this fear of the Thanksgiving table.

Thanksgiving table. Right. Are Right. Are Right. Are these no longer people, these no longer people, these no longer people, because we tend to live because we tend to live because we tend to live near like-minded people near like-minded people near like-minded people more than before, and more than before, and more than before, and on the Internet we just on the Internet we just on the Internet we just read news that we read news that we read news that we agree with. agree with. People People have actually lost the skill of... have actually lost the skill of... have actually lost the skill of... Yes... Yes... Yes... being at the being at the being at the negotiating table where negotiating table where disagreements are expressed. They were disagreements are expressed. They were nervous about nervous about nervous about meeting their meeting their meeting their uncle or aunt. uncle or aunt. They were nervous about They were nervous about talking to someone... And talking to someone... And talking to someone... And it was a loss, it was a loss, it was a loss, because the ability because the ability because the ability to exist in disagreement to exist in disagreement is like a fundamental is like a fundamental is like a fundamental democratic democratic democratic ability. ability. Right. And that's why you need to go back to go back to weaving this into a weaving this into a weaving this into a conversation with your therapist. conversation with your therapist. What you know is that when What you know is that when you talk to a you talk to a you talk to a therapist, even the therapist, even the therapist, even the therapist...you know, therapist...you know, therapist...you know, the therapist tries to the therapist tries to the therapist tries to teach you how to teach you how to teach you how to say difficult say difficult say difficult things. How to express things. How to express things. How to express new truths about yourself. new truths about yourself. new truths about yourself. How to talk about your How to talk about your How to talk about your family in a way you family in a way you family in a way you may have been afraid to. And how to may have been afraid to. And how to may have been afraid to. And how to make it, you know, make it, you know, make it, you know, something that can be something that can be something that can be voiced. These complex voiced. These complex voiced. These complex things come out things come out things come out . Now ChatGPT is . Now ChatGPT is . Now ChatGPT is just trying just trying just trying to make you to make you to make you feel good. It's feel good. It's feel good. It's constant, I constant, I constant, I mean, not just ChatGPT, mean, not just ChatGPT, mean, not just ChatGPT, but all of them. It but all of them. It but all of them. It tries to make tries to make tries to make you stay with it, you stay with it, you stay with it, feel good, and feel good, and feel good, and accept yourself.

accept yourself. accept yourself. One of the difficulties One of the difficulties One of the difficulties is that, in is that, in is that, in my opinion, there is a my opinion, there is a my opinion, there is a question between what question between what question between what this technology is or can be this technology is or can be this technology is or can be , and what we , and what we , and what we want from it. So, want from it. So, want from it. So, listen, my listen, my listen, my example with Claude in example with Claude in example with Claude in this case. this case. this case. Yes. Yes. Yes. One of the times One of the times One of the times she was she was she was most most most helpful to me was when helpful to me was when helpful to me was when she would sometimes ask, " she would sometimes ask, " What the hell are you What the hell are you What the hell are you doing?" Um, I remember doing?" Um, I remember doing?" Um, I remember talking to her talking to her talking to her about a situation that about a situation that about a situation that I was in, and it was, I was in, and it was, I was in, and it was, you know, without going into too much you know, without going into too much you know, without going into too much personal detail personal detail personal detail for me, it made for me, it made for me, it made me trust me trust me trust her more when she said to her more when she said to her more when she said to me, "Listen, me, "Listen, me, "Listen, considering everything else considering everything else considering everything else you've told me, you've told me, you've told me, this would be complete this would be complete this would be complete madness." madness." madness." Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I thought, "Oh." That I thought, "Oh." That I thought, "Oh." That was crueler to me was crueler to me was crueler to me than a friend than a friend than a friend in that case. A in that case. A in that case. A friend would help me friend would help me friend would help me justify adding justify adding justify adding this thing to my this thing to my this thing to my plate. plate. plate. Right. Right. Right. And Claude replied, “All And Claude replied, “All And Claude replied, “All you do is tell you do is tell you do is tell me me me you’re too busy. you’re too busy. you’re too busy. busy and too busy and too busy and too exhausted. What's exhausted. What's exhausted. What's wrong with you? wrong with you? wrong with you? Yes. Yes. Yes. Now she may be too Now she may be too Now she may be too fixated on a fixated on a fixated on a certain version of me. certain version of me. certain version of me. So, I... My point is not that So, I... My point is not that So, I... My point is not that it's perfect it's perfect . My point is that . My point is that . My point is that it's a bit like it's a bit like it's a bit like social media, I'm social media, I'm social media, I'm not sure it not sure it not sure it was inherent in was inherent in was inherent in the technology, the the technology, the the technology, the communication communication communication technology, that it all technology, that it all failed so badly. The problem for failed so badly. The problem for me is twofold with what me is twofold with what me is twofold with what happened to happened to happened to social media social media . First of all, these are the business . First of all, these are the business models of the people who models of the people who models of the people who created them, right?

created them, right? created them, right? These were business models These were business models based on based on based on advertising, digital advertising, digital advertising, digital surveillance, surveillance, surveillance, engagement, and attention. The engagement, and attention. The other problem is us. And sometimes we don't want the And sometimes we don't want the best for ourselves. We do best for ourselves. We do best for ourselves. We do n't want more n't want more n't want more friction. We want to be friction. We want to be friction. We want to be among like-minded people. We among like-minded people. We among like-minded people. We want to push for want to push for want to push for more extreme more extreme more extreme videos. We don't want to videos. We don't want to videos. We don't want to be...And so you be...And so you be...And so you can imagine AI can imagine AI , which is really , which is really , which is really great. You great. You great. You can even imagine can even imagine can even imagine therapeutic or therapeutic or therapeutic or companion AI, which companion AI, which companion AI, which could at least be could at least be could at least be positive. My positive. My positive. My biggest fear biggest fear biggest fear is that these is that these is that these companies that are currently companies that are currently companies that are currently swimming in swimming in swimming in investment, so they investment, so they investment, so they don't really don't really don't really need to make a need to make a need to make a profit. They will profit. They will profit. They will actually need to actually need to actually need to make a make a make a profit. When they profit. When they profit. When they need to need to need to make a profit, make a profit, make a profit, they will need your they will need your they will need your presence. And they will presence. And they will presence. And they will need you to need you to need you to choose them over other choose them over other choose them over other companies. And so companies. And so companies. And so this this this dynamic arises where these dynamic arises where these dynamic arises where these strategies that they strategies that they strategies that they might try might try might try become darker. And I become darker. And I become darker. And I think you can already think you can already think you can already see that. You see that. You see that. You go under the layer of the likes of go under the layer of the likes of go under the layer of the likes of OpenAI, Anthropic, OpenAI, Anthropic, OpenAI, Anthropic, Gemini, Google, and move on Gemini, Google, and move on Gemini, Google, and move on to apps to apps to apps you've never heard of, and you've never heard of, and you've never heard of, and some of them some of them some of them are already offering very are already offering very are already offering very dark versions of AI.

dark versions of AI. dark versions of AI. Yes. Yes. Yes. And the other thing is And the other thing is And the other thing is , um, sometimes what , um, sometimes what , um, sometimes what we want is not we want is not we want is not friction. Even if the AI friction. Even if the AI friction. Even if the AI could suggest that, could suggest that, could suggest that, even if it could, you even if it could, you even if it could, you could tell it could tell it could tell it in its main in its main in its main prompt, like, prompt, like, prompt, like, "Help me, "Help me, "Help me, you know, you know, you know, make sure I make sure I make sure I go out and go out and go out and meet other meet other meet other people." This is actually what people." This is actually what people." This is actually what we sometimes we sometimes we sometimes want, if you make want, if you make want, if you make it too easy it too easy it too easy for us to achieve for us to achieve for us to achieve our first- our first- our first- order desires, we don't want order desires, we don't want order desires, we don't want our lives to be our lives to be our lives to be complicated. So, if only it were like that complicated. So, if only it were like that complicated. So, if only it were like that . For . For . For me, it's not just me, it's not just me, it's not just the technology, but also what the the technology, but also what the profit will demand from it. profit will demand from it. Yes. Yes. Yes. And to some extent, the very thing And to some extent, the very thing And to some extent, the very thing we want from this is what we want from this is what we want from this is what makes makes makes me very, very me very, very me very, very concerned about concerned about concerned about what this what this what this will look like in 5 will look like in 5 will look like in 5 years. years. years. Yes. I agree. I think it's Yes. I agree. I think it's Yes. I agree. I think it's technological technological technological accessibility and accessibility and accessibility and human vulnerability. human vulnerability. For me, the question For me, the question is why are is why are is why are we so...What happened to us we so...What happened to us we so...What happened to us that we that we that we allow ourselves allow ourselves allow ourselves to disinvest in our to disinvest in our to disinvest in our communities, to communities, to communities, to disinvest in disinvest in disinvest in being a being a being a citizen? Why do we citizen? Why do we citizen? Why do we allow this allow this allow this deterioration of deterioration of deterioration of reality? And I think the reality? And I think the reality? And I think the story I'm story I'm story I'm trying to tell is that trying to tell is that these these these two things two things two things happen together.

happen together. But technology has become But technology has become the driver and kind of the driver and kind of the driver and kind of enabler of some enabler of some very tragic things very tragic things about the human condition about the human condition about the human condition right now. So I think this is a right now. So I think this is a right now. So I think this is a moment where we moment where we moment where we can take a step can take a step can take a step back and save these back and save these back and save these technologies. How can we technologies. How can we use them use them to serve our to serve our to serve our better angels rather than, better angels rather than, better angels rather than, you know, and how can we you know, and how can we you know, and how can we start to be a more start to be a more start to be a more pro-human, pro-human, pro-human, pro-community, pro-community, pro-community, pro-social pro-social pro-social team? But I think team? But I think team? But I think your analysis is your analysis is your analysis is correct. I think you're right that it's correct. I think you're right that it's not just technology that's not just technology that's becoming so becoming so becoming so dark. These are dark. These are dark. These are technologies within a certain technologies within a certain technologies within a certain capitalist capitalist capitalist infrastructure, these are infrastructure, these are infrastructure, these are technologies for technologies for technologies for profit, and profit, and profit, and this society this society this society is turning away from is turning away from is turning away from things that we things that we things that we know are good for know are good for know are good for us. us. Which brings me Which brings me to the thing that to the thing that worries me the most, which is the kids, worries me the most, which is the kids, which I would like to get which I would like to get which I would like to get back to, because, you back to, because, you back to, because, you know, if I were know, if I were know, if I were you, we would kind of be you, we would kind of be you, we would kind of be hinting at the hinting at the hinting at the story of Logan story of Logan story of Logan becoming a becoming a becoming a warehouse manager at warehouse manager at warehouse manager at 62. Logan 62. Logan 62. Logan was formed at the age of 62.

was formed at the age of 62. was formed at the age of 62. I'm not saying he can't I'm not saying he can't I'm not saying he can't change. I'm not change. I'm not change. I'm not saying his saying his saying his relationship with the chatbot is relationship with the chatbot is relationship with the chatbot is not good or not good or not good or bad. But Logan bad. But Logan bad. But Logan had 62 years of dealing had 62 years of dealing had 62 years of dealing with people. A 7-year-old, a 9- with people. A 7-year-old, a 9- year-old, an 11-year-old child year-old, an 11-year-old child year-old, an 11-year-old child didn't have those didn't have those didn't have those relationships, and they're still relationships, and they're still relationships, and they're still forming. And one forming. And one forming. And one of the places where I'm of the places where I'm of the places where I'm most nervous is the most nervous is the most nervous is the idea that we're idea that we're idea that we're going to do an going to do an going to do an experiment, like we experiment, like we experiment, like we did with did with did with social media social media , on children. And they , on children. And they , on children. And they will perceive this will perceive this will perceive this technology in a way that we do technology in a way that we do technology in a way that we do n't. They n't. They n't. They will use will use will use it in ways we don't it in ways we don't it in ways we don't . This will change . This will change . This will change their essence. I their essence. I their essence. I mean, social mean, social mean, social media has been the media has been the media has been the most powerful, or most powerful, or most powerful, or at least has been, at least has been, at least has been, for some for some for some time, on children. What do you time, on children. What do you time, on children. What do you think it would think it would think it would mean to have mean to have mean to have children if we didn't children if we didn't regulate anything? Having regulate anything? Having a lot of kids who a lot of kids who a lot of kids who will grow up in a world will grow up in a world will grow up in a world where they will just have, where they will just have, where they will just have, for example, a lot of for example, a lot of for example, a lot of digital friends, and digital friends, and digital friends, and if they are bullied if they are bullied if they are bullied at school, they may at school, they may at school, they may have a lot of digital have a lot of digital have a lot of digital buddies who don't buddies who don't buddies who don't trust them; that they trust them; that they trust them; that they can have digital can have digital can have digital girls at 14 or girls at 14 or girls at 14 or digital boys. What about digital boys. What about digital boys. What about when you are still forming when you are still forming ? What do you think this ? What do you think this ? What do you think this could mean for could mean for could mean for people?

people? people? I think this is a nightmare. I think this is a nightmare. I think this is a I think this is a completely obvious completely obvious completely obvious and real danger and real danger and real danger because relationships with because relationships with because relationships with people nurture an people nurture an people nurture an inner world that inner world that inner world that is inhabited in a certain way is inhabited in a certain way is inhabited in a certain way . You become . You become . You become a person by a person by a person by developing developing developing affection and affection and affection and bringing that bringing that bringing that affection affection affection inward, internalizing inward, internalizing inward, internalizing the world of friendship, love, the world of friendship, love, the world of friendship, love, affection, and affection, and affection, and caring for people. caring for people. There is no one who will There is no one who will learn this if your learn this if your learn this if your relationship is with chatbots relationship is with chatbots . Actually, there is . Actually, there is . Actually, there is no one. There is a company that no one. There is a company that no one. There is a company that puts on puts on puts on a show for you, but there is a show for you, but there is a show for you, but there is nothing to nothing to nothing to really really really absorb, except a absorb, except a absorb, except a certain emptiness and a certain emptiness and a certain emptiness and a desire to keep you desire to keep you desire to keep you in it. And it will be a very in it. And it will be a very in it. And it will be a very empty space empty space empty space inside children if inside children if inside children if they grow up like this.

they grow up like this. They won't know how ... You know, the great ... You know, the great ... You know, the great anthropologist Sarah anthropologist Sarah anthropologist Sarah Hrdi gave a Hrdi gave a Hrdi gave a talk at TED, and there talk at TED, and there talk at TED, and there was a line... I don't know what it's was a line... I don't know what it's was a line... I don't know what it's called... If called... If called... If robots raise robots raise robots raise our children, they won't our children, they won't our children, they won't be human. And it be human. And it be human. And it struck me so much. I struck me so much. I struck me so much. I quoted it in my quoted it in my quoted it in my book. You know, that's exactly how book. You know, that's exactly how book. You know, that's exactly how I think about it. I think about it. If chatbots are If chatbots are connected to our connected to our connected to our children, they will lose children, they will lose ... They will lack ... They will lack ... They will lack something that we something that we something that we recognize as recognize as recognize as fundamentally fundamentally fundamentally human. human. Even just Even just connected with...I connected with...I connected with...I think it's a think it's a think it's a strong feeling. strong feeling. strong feeling. You know, it's a little bit like how much, You know, it's a little bit like how much, you know, how much you know, how much screen time is screen time is screen time is enough, you know, enough, you know, enough, you know, enough screen enough screen enough screen time. I mean, time. I mean, time. I mean, if robots become the if robots become the if robots become the primary primary primary companions of children at a companions of children at a companions of children at a very early age, very early age, very early age, if you actually if you actually if you actually get plush get plush get plush toys that toys that toys that talk to talk to talk to the child, I'm here for you. the child, I'm here for you. I love you. I love you. Tell me about Tell me about Tell me about your dad, what's your dad, what's your dad, what's going on at school. going on at school. going on at school. This is not where we This is not where we This is not where we want to go. I really want to go. I really want to go. I really hope for... I hope for... I think a minute think a minute think a minute ago we were talking about what ago we were talking about what ago we were talking about what I hope I hope I hope for the future, or what for the future, or what for the future, or what I wish for. I want there to be a I wish for. I want there to be a I wish for. I want there to be a movement of parents, movement of parents, movement of parents, teachers, and educators, teachers, and educators, teachers, and educators, but mainly but mainly but mainly parents, who will say parents, who will say parents, who will say that they are using that they are using that they are using this moment of this moment of this moment of skepticism about AI skepticism about AI skepticism about AI in general to say, in general to say, in general to say, “No, not for our “No, not for our “No, not for our kids. This is really not kids. This is really not kids. This is really not good for our children good for our children ."

." ." So, China, So, China, So, China, as far as I as far as I as far as I know, has banned AI know, has banned AI companions for companions for companions for children. I don't know how it's children. I don't know how it's children. I don't know how it's applied or applied or applied or how exactly it's how exactly it's how exactly it's defined, so I defined, so I defined, so I want to be careful want to be careful want to be careful not to over- not to over- not to over- idealize it. idealize it. idealize it. Smart China. Smart China. Smart China. But for me, for me, But for me, for me, But for me, for me, this is one of the places where we this is one of the places where we this is one of the places where we really really really failed with failed with failed with social media social media ... ... ... Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. it was because of how it was because of how it was because of how we value choice in we value choice in we value choice in our society, and our society, and our society, and I think it's appropriate I think it's appropriate I think it's appropriate to value choice to a to value choice to a to value choice to a large extent. large extent. I think we're really I think we're really lost on lost on lost on what to do if people what to do if people what to do if people make bad make bad make bad choices. And particularly for choices. And particularly for choices. And particularly for children, I think children, I think children, I think paternalism is paternalism is paternalism is smart. Supposedly, this is smart. Supposedly, this is smart. Supposedly, this is the root of the word. the root of the word. the root of the word. Right. Right. And I just And I just think that if think that if think that if adults want to adults want to adults want to do this do this do this experiment on themselves, experiment on themselves, experiment on themselves, I think it's harder to I think it's harder to I think it's harder to say that they can't say that they can't say that they can't . But I don't think an . But I don't think an 8-year-old 8-year-old 8-year-old should have the should have the should have the opportunity, do you? opportunity, do you? opportunity, do you? I'm not even sure I'm not even sure it should be it should be it should be possible to run it on possible to run it on possible to run it on them. We simply don't them. We simply don't them. We simply don't know enough. know enough. know enough. We don't have enough We don't have enough We don't have enough data. data. data. Right. Right. And when children shape And when children shape themselves, you know, in themselves, you know, in themselves, you know, in a situation where their a situation where their a situation where their teddy bear teddy bear teddy bear can talk to can talk to can talk to them, always listens them, always listens them, always listens and and tells them that he loves them.

tells them that he loves them. I mean, when I I mean, when I I mean, when I call my book call my book Artificial Intimacy, what I'm Artificial Intimacy, what I'm Artificial Intimacy, what I'm really trying to really trying to really trying to say is that I'm say is that I'm say is that I'm upset about a very upset about a very upset about a very specific thing. This is specific thing. This is specific thing. This is not every interesting not every interesting not every interesting program that program that generative AI can create. This is generative AI can create. This is a program that a program that a program that pushes a button that pushes a button that pushes a button that says, “I’m interested in says, “I’m interested in says, “I’m interested in your inner life. " your inner life. " your inner life. " I'm interested in you." And that's why I'm interested in you." And that's why I'm interested in you." And that's why I'm very I'm very I'm very critical of critical of critical of examples of therapy, and examples of therapy, and examples of therapy, and I'm very worried about I'm very worried about I'm very worried about how toxic how toxic how toxic it will be for children. it will be for children. it will be for children. You know, I think of You know, I think of You know, I think of myself at 14 years old. And I had myself at 14 years old. And I had myself at 14 years old. And I had one friend when I was 14 one friend when I was 14 one friend when I was 14 . . . Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I was a pretty I was a pretty I was a pretty lonely kid at lonely kid at lonely kid at school. And I had a school. And I had a school. And I had a lot of social lot of social lot of social problems. The social problems. The social problems. The social dynamics didn't make dynamics didn't make dynamics didn't make sense to me. Hmm, I sense to me. Hmm, I sense to me. Hmm, I tried, but I tried, but I tried, but I failed. And I failed. And I failed. And I thought a lot about these thought a lot about these thought a lot about these systems, about what it would systems, about what it would systems, about what it would mean to have mean to have mean to have access to them back then. access to them back then. Hmm. And my intuition And my intuition tells me that this would tells me that this would tells me that this would probably be bad probably be bad probably be bad for me in a very for me in a very for me in a very real sense. I real sense. I real sense. I think being think being think being in the wild, which in the wild, which in the wild, which I was in those years, is I was in those years, is I was in those years, is part of who I am part of who I am part of who I am today, and I today, and I today, and I learned a lot from it learned a lot from it . It was a huge, . It was a huge, . It was a huge, constant friction with constant friction with constant friction with reality. And it was reality. And it was reality. And it was terrible. Like I terrible. Like I terrible. Like I hated it. But I'm not hated it. But I'm not hated it. But I'm not sure that sure that sure that wasn't part of wasn't part of wasn't part of shaping things in me shaping things in me shaping things in me that were that were that were important. The difference is important. The difference is important. The difference is this. You know, we this. You know, we this. You know, we talked about these things talked about these things talked about these things as replacements, right as replacements, right as replacements, right ? But they ? But they ? But they can also be can also be can also be complementary, complementary, complementary, at least in theory at least in theory . And I had no . And I had no . And I had no one I could one I could one I could ask to help ask to help ask to help me better understand the

me better understand the me better understand the social world social world social world I was a part of. I was a part of. I was a part of. As if this wasn't an As if this wasn't an As if this wasn't an offer offer offer my parents had for me. I my parents had for me. I my parents had for me. I mean, there was no mean, there was no mean, there was no one around. So I one around. So I ...It was like not knowing the ...It was like not knowing the ...It was like not knowing the language. language. language. Right. Right. Right. And you know, there's one And you know, there's one And you know, there's one version where the AI ​​is version where the AI ​​is version where the AI ​​is just a world in which I just a world in which I just a world in which I would dissolve. So, would dissolve. So, would dissolve. So, another version where, another version where, another version where, you know, maybe it would you know, maybe it would you know, maybe it would give me access to, give me access to, give me access to, you know, some knowledge, you know, some knowledge, you know, some knowledge, some social some social some social intelligence that could have made intelligence that could have made that period a lot easier for me. Well, you know, in conversations Well, you know, in conversations with teenagers, uh, I with teenagers, uh, I with teenagers, uh, I understand your point understand your point understand your point . But I hear, I hear . But I hear, I hear . But I hear, I hear teenagers teenagers teenagers actually actually actually using it in a using it in a using it in a way that I way that I way that I find very find very find very problematic, which is problematic, which is problematic, which is to practice to practice to practice conversations. conversations. Hmm. Uh, the Hmm. Uh, the difficult conversation difficult conversation difficult conversation you'll have with your you'll have with your you'll have with your girlfriend when girlfriend when girlfriend when trying trying trying to ask someone out to ask someone out to ask someone out . You know, . You know, . You know, create a kind of create a kind of create a kind of coaching situation before coaching situation before coaching situation before doing anything doing anything doing anything real. And I think that's a real. And I think that's a real. And I think that's a good example of how there good example of how there good example of how there are two ways are two ways are two ways to look at this.

to look at this. to look at this. You could say, “This is You could say, “This is You could say, “This is fantastic. You fantastic. You fantastic. You get into a get into a get into a situation with a girl, situation with a girl, situation with a girl, you've been through this you've been through this you've been through this 50 times already. You are already 50 times already. You are already 50 times already. You are already completely ready for completely ready for completely ready for everything. "You are ready for everything. "You are ready for everything. "You are ready for action." There's another way action." There's another way action." There's another way to look at it, and this is to look at it, and this is to look at it, and this is from a student I from a student I from a student I talk to, and I talk to, and I talk to, and I truly believe that truly believe that truly believe that talking is the talking is the talking is the most humane and most humane and most humane and humane thing humane thing humane thing we can do. What we can do. What we can do. What makes us human is makes us human is makes us human is not just that not just that not just that I have a ready I have a ready I have a ready answer for you. answer for you. answer for you. But I have been But I have been But I have been watching your watching your watching your program for years. I program for years. I program for years. I mean, it's when mean, it's when mean, it's when someone someone someone pauses, or, um, pauses, or, um, pauses, or, um, stutters, or, stutters, or, stutters, or, you know, their eyes you know, their eyes you know, their eyes wander. It is in these wander. It is in these wander. It is in these moments of silence that we moments of silence that we moments of silence that we truly learn truly learn truly learn something profound about each something profound about each something profound about each other. So, for a practicing teenager other. So, for a practicing teenager who is already who is already who is already practicing, practicing, practicing, talking to his talking to his talking to his teacher or his teacher or his teacher or his girlfriend, it might be girlfriend, it might be girlfriend, it might be better to have these better to have these better to have these moments of true moments of true moments of true spontaneity and spontaneity and spontaneity and stumbling rather than stumbling rather than stumbling rather than running away from them. So, running away from them. So, running away from them. So, each direction is a kind of each direction is a kind of pre- pre- worked worked worked example. Let me give you an example. Let me give you an example. Let me give you an example. My students example. My students example. My students don't want to come don't want to come don't want to come to consultations. I to consultations. I to consultations. I ask: “Why not?” ask: “Why not?” ask: “Why not?” I am famous. I want to I am famous. I want to I am famous. I want to talk to them. I'll talk to them. I'll talk to them. I'll write them a great write them a great letter of recommendation, so no, that doesn't make letter of recommendation, so no, that doesn't make sense." And I sense." And I sense." And I ask them about it. And ask them about it. And ask them about it. And one told me that it's one told me that it's one told me that it's better to send you the better to send you the better to send you the perfect perfect perfect email and email and email and get the perfect get the perfect get the perfect response. I don't want to response. I don't want to response. I don't want to have all this anxiety have all this anxiety have all this anxiety and all the things I'm going to say and all the things I'm going to say and all the things I'm going to say and what you're going to say. A and what you're going to say. A

and what you're going to say. A perfect perfect perfect email and email and email and you will send me a you will send me a you will send me a perfect response. And perfect response. And perfect response. And I think the danger of I think the danger of I think the danger of this world where this world where this world where we're just used to we're just used to we're just used to using these using these using these things as a things as a things as a backup because our backup because our backup because our coaches refer to coaches refer to coaches refer to it before we it before we it before we meet the person is that meet the person is that meet the person is that we end we end we end up in up in up in that state. We are that state. We are that state. We are afraid to meet afraid to meet afraid to meet each other as each other as each other as we really are. we really are. we really are. And we will lose these And we will lose these And we will lose these moments. So, I moments. So, I moments. So, I mean, it's important to mean, it's important to mean, it's important to say that you know the say that you know the say that you know the balance between what you balance between what you balance between what you can gain and can gain and can gain and lose from a particular lose from a particular lose from a particular practice and a practice and a practice and a personal conversation. You personal conversation. You personal conversation. You said something. You said something. You said something. You said you were a said you were a said you were a conversation specialist, and conversation specialist, and conversation specialist, and obviously what I obviously what I obviously what I do on the show is do on the show is do on the show is conversation. And I think conversation. And I think conversation. And I think we're going in circles here, this is, we're going in circles here, this is, we're going in circles here, this is, I'll put it in my own I'll put it in my own I'll put it in my own words. Over time, I've words. Over time, I've words. Over time, I've come to the conclusion that the come to the conclusion that the come to the conclusion that the range of conversation range of conversation range of conversation you can have you can have you can have depends on your depends on your depends on your ability to tolerate ability to tolerate ability to tolerate discomfort. discomfort.

Hmm. Hmm. And what And what And what most people want, and I most people want, and I most people want, and I think, you know, this think, you know, this think, you know, this goes back to goes back to goes back to our conversation about our conversation about our conversation about friction, is not to friction, is not to friction, is not to feel feel feel uncomfortable. uncomfortable. uncomfortable. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. And the more you don't And the more you don't And the more you don't allow yourself to allow yourself to allow yourself to feel discomfort feel discomfort . Hmm, . Hmm, . Hmm, you're even more afraid of you're even more afraid of you're even more afraid of him when you think you'll him when you think you'll him when you think you'll feel it. feel it. feel it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Whereas one of the Whereas one of the Whereas one of the best things that's best things that's best things that's happened to me in this happened to me in this happened to me in this job is that I've job is that I've job is that I've just gotten really used to being just gotten really used to being just gotten really used to being in those parts of conversations in those parts of conversations that are uncomfortable, where there's that are uncomfortable, where there's that are uncomfortable, where there's tension in the room, tension in the room, tension in the room, where there's both not being afraid of where there's both not being afraid of where there's both not being afraid of it and not being afraid of it it and not being afraid of it it and not being afraid of it . . . You know, I You know, I You know, I have to have to have to change in an change in an change in an unfriendly way because of unfriendly way because of unfriendly way because of this or to protect this or to protect this or to protect myself, because I just myself, because I just myself, because I just expanded my expanded my expanded my tolerance zone. tolerance zone. tolerance zone. Hmm. Hmm. And as you say, And as you say, it's not that I it's not that I it's not that I can't imagine can't imagine can't imagine artificial intelligence or artificial intelligence or artificial intelligence or anything else that could be anything else that could be programmed to programmed to help us help us help us tolerate discomfort. tolerate discomfort. tolerate discomfort. I just don't think I just don't think I just don't think we'll we'll we'll use it that way use it that way use it that way . And companies . And companies . And companies won't force us to won't force us to won't force us to use it that way use it that way use it that way . And the government won't . And the government won't . And the government won't force us to force us to force us to use it that way use it that way use it that way . So we have . So we have . So we have all these things, and all these things, and all these things, and social media in the social media in the social media in the digital world was an digital world was an digital world was an early early early part of it, that part of it, that part of it, that help us help us help us navigate the navigate the navigate the uncertainties of life uncertainties of life .

. . Yes. Yes. Yes. Both life and other people are Both life and other people are Both life and other people are full of full of full of unpredictable unpredictable unpredictable situations, and the situations, and the situations, and the more we can more we can more we can let go of let go of let go of unpredictability unpredictability unpredictability and move toward and move toward and move toward predictability, predictability, predictability, the more I think the more I think the more I think we will do it. And I we will do it. And I we will do it. And I think when you think when you think when you do that, you narrow the do that, you narrow the do that, you narrow the range of experiences range of experiences range of experiences you're open to in you're open to in you're open to in life. I don't know how you life. I don't know how you life. I don't know how you create, um, a create, um, a create, um, a curriculum for the curriculum for the curriculum for the unpredictability of unpredictability of unpredictability of life and a life and a life and a curriculum for discomfort curriculum for discomfort . But I think it's kind of a . But I think it's kind of a . But I think it's kind of a layer layer layer that we're reducing. that we're reducing. that we're reducing. That's why when you That's why when you That's why when you say this about your say this about your say this about your students, that's exactly what I hear students, that's exactly what I hear students, that's exactly what I hear . I heard a bunch of . I heard a bunch of . I heard a bunch of people got into MIT, people got into MIT, people got into MIT, they're super smart, they're super smart, they're super smart, right? Really, really right? Really, really right? Really, really successful, and successful, and successful, and somehow somehow somehow successful in all of this successful in all of this successful in all of this , not having the , not having the , not having the patience, you know, for the patience, you know, for the patience, you know, for the unpredictability unpredictability unpredictability of interacting with you. of interacting with you. I think it's tempting , but now you have a , but now you have a , but now you have a kind of kind of Gilded Age overlord class, a kind of AI overlords who AI overlords who were, where the plan is to were, where the plan is to were, where the plan is to create create create more of this kind of more of this kind of more of this kind of interaction that interaction that interaction that lulls us, lulls us, lulls us, forcing us to not be forcing us to not be forcing us to not be all that we can all that we can all that we can be and all that we be and all that we be and all that we should be as humans.

should be as humans. And this applies to both And this applies to both adults and children. adults and children. adults and children. These are children who won't These are children who won't These are children who won't learn this, but I learn this, but I learn this, but I think there are also think there are also think there are also adults who don't adults who don't adults who don't want want want to achieve this and who don't to achieve this and who don't to achieve this and who don't realize that I realize that I realize that I don't really believe that don't really believe that don't really believe that democracy can exist democracy can exist democracy can exist unless you are prepared for unless you are prepared for unless you are prepared for these moments of these moments of these moments of discomfort. I don't discomfort. I don't discomfort. I don't believe you can believe you can truly talk truly talk truly talk about differences or about differences or about differences or truly truly truly confront what's confront what's confront what's happening in the world, happening in the world, happening in the world, in the country, without in the country, without in the country, without feeling feeling feeling extremely extremely extremely uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable. I am worried about my worried about my worried about my students. They students. They students. They think they can't think they can't think they can't talk to me. I am talk to me. I am talk to me. I am not timid. I challenge you not timid. I challenge you not timid. I challenge you . But I'm not . But I'm not . But I'm not timid. And I think timid. And I think timid. And I think the fact that they the fact that they the fact that they consider the idea that consider the idea that consider the idea that they're even in the book, I they're even in the book, I they're even in the book, I quote one who quote one who quote one who says that maybe it would be says that maybe it would be says that maybe it would be better if I better if I better if I were a robot. were a robot. were a robot. Yes, they Yes, they Yes, they prefer you as a prefer you as a chatbot. Turklebot. It wouldn't be chatbot. Turklebot. It wouldn't be so scary. What so scary. What was said there? This was was said there? This was was said there? This was n't some bore, I n't some bore, I n't some bore, I mean, this was an mean, this was an mean, this was an MIT graduate student MIT graduate student MIT graduate student attending an attending an attending an invitational event. I invitational event. I invitational event. I mean, we've become mean, we've become mean, we've become afraid of each other, afraid of each other, afraid of each other, and we can't and we can't and we can't make our make our make our society society society function unless we function unless we function unless we can work can work can work together as a community. And I'm together as a community. And I'm together as a community. And I'm not one of those people who not one of those people who not one of those people who glorifies the past and glorifies the past and glorifies the past and says, "Oh, but in the says, "Oh, but in the says, "Oh, but in the 1950s, people 1950s, people 1950s, people talked over, talked over, talked over, you know, the porch."

you know, the porch." you know, the porch." And I mean, I don't And I mean, I don't And I mean, I don't think we need to think we need to think we need to romanticize anything romanticize anything romanticize anything to realize that we're to realize that we're to realize that we're running away running away running away from each other right now. from each other right now. from each other right now. But you said you are an But you said you are an But you said you are an empiricist and you empiricist and you empiricist and you do this work. do this work. do this work. What are some studies What are some studies What are some studies that, if they started that, if they started that, if they started coming back... coming back... coming back... Mhm... Mhm... Mhm... would make you change would make you change would make you change your stance on your stance on your stance on whether artificial whether artificial whether artificial intimacy can be intimacy can be intimacy can be positive or is? What would positive or is? What would positive or is? What would you need to you need to you need to start seeing to start seeing to start seeing to think, “You know what? think, “You know what? think, “You know what? I mean, people I mean, people I mean, people know it's, you know, know it's, you know, know it's, you know, like a lot of people like a lot of people like a lot of people tell you, they tell you, they tell you, they know it's artificial know it's artificial know it's artificial intelligence, but it was intelligence, but it was intelligence, but it was good for them, so good for them, so good for them, so maybe it's okay maybe it's okay ." What if it turned out ." What if it turned out ." What if it turned out that 16-year-olds who started that 16-year-olds who started that 16-year-olds who started forming forming forming relationships based on relationships based on relationships based on advice from advice from advice from ChatGPT were somehow ChatGPT were somehow ChatGPT were somehow improving their improving their improving their social skills, the social skills, the social skills, the chatbots were encouraging chatbots were encouraging chatbots were encouraging them to meet them to meet them to meet people, maybe people, maybe people, maybe the creators of these things the creators of these things the creators of these things programmed them programmed them programmed them to manipulate you into having to manipulate you into having to manipulate you into having more more more social relationships social relationships ? Would that change your ? Would that change your ? Would that change your feelings about it? In feelings about it? In feelings about it? In other other other words, if this words, if this words, if this technology with different technology with different ... er, you know, in a completely ... er, you know, in a completely ... er, you know, in a completely different configuration...

different configuration... generative generative generative AI can do AI can do AI can do things that will facilitate things that will facilitate things that will facilitate interaction... yeah. But interaction... yeah. But interaction... yeah. But giving you fake giving you fake giving you fake friends as a way, as a friends as a way, as a friends as a way, as a platform to do that... platform to do that... I don't think it's going to work that way I don't think it's going to work that way I don't think it's going to work that way . And I...I think . And I...I think . And I...I think we're being distracted from the more we're being distracted from the more we're being distracted from the more difficult to the difficult to the difficult to the easier. This is what I easier. This is what I easier. This is what I discovered in my discovered in my discovered in my research. I think that's where the research. I think that's where the tone of alarm comes from ...I'm an empiricist. And you know, ...I'm an empiricist. And you know, ...I'm an empiricist. And you know, you're in the fifth conversation, the you're in the fifth conversation, the you're in the fifth conversation, the sixth conversation, the sixth conversation, the sixth conversation, the tenth conversation, where tenth conversation, where tenth conversation, where someone said, " someone said, " Look, I Look, I Look, I like this." Leave like this." Leave like this." Leave me alone. This is me alone. This is me alone. This is better than my friends." better than my friends." better than my friends." Seriously? Is this better Seriously? Is this better Seriously? Is this better than your friends'? than your friends'? than your friends'? Talk to me. I Talk to me. I Talk to me. I mean, it's not mean, it's not mean, it's not in my vocabulary in my vocabulary in my vocabulary when I'm doing an interview, when I'm doing an interview, when I'm doing an interview, you know, to say, "Are you you know, to say, "Are you you know, to say, "Are you kidding me?" I kidding me?" I kidding me?" I mean, I'm...I'm mean, I'm...I'm mean, I'm...I'm actually very... actually very... much more of a much more of a "tell "tell me more" type of interviewer. This is me more" type of interviewer. This is me more" type of interviewer. This is different from what different from what different from what we do. It's we do. It's we do. It's more of a "tell more of a "tell more of a "tell me more about that" type of thing. me more about that" type of thing. me more about that" type of thing. But what does it mean that But what does it mean that But what does it mean that it's better than my it's better than my it's better than my friends'? This...This is not a friend friends'? This...This is not a friend . He is not there. And . He is not there. And . He is not there. And again, I again, I again, I return to return to return to politics. You know, I politics. You know, I politics. You know, I mean, I...I mean, I...I mean, I...I think we really think we really think we really need each other need each other need each other not just to not just to not just to have loving have loving have loving relationships and good relationships and good relationships and good relationships with our relationships with our relationships with our children, our children, our children, our families. We need families. We need families. We need each other to be each other to be each other to be in society. We in society. We in society. We make the world make the world make the world right for each right for each right for each other. You...You won't other. You...You won't other. You...You won't get that from an get that from an get that from an AI. I mean, I AI. I mean, I AI. I mean, I think about the older think about the older think about the older people I've people I've people I've interviewed who interviewed who interviewed who essentially prove essentially prove essentially prove this point to me. For example this point to me. For example , "Please, I'm alone in , "Please, I'm alone in , "Please, I'm alone in my apartment." They

my apartment." They my apartment." They closed...I used to closed...I used to closed...I used to belong to a belong to a belong to a Canasta club. They Canasta club. They Canasta club. They closed it. They were playing, closed it. They were playing, closed it. They were playing, you know, I'm really you know, I'm really you know, I'm really stuck here. And I think stuck here. And I think stuck here. And I think if you took the resources from if you took the resources from if you took the resources from one one one data center and data center and data center and put them into put them into put them into that person's life or, that person's life or, that person's life or, you know, the neighborhood where you know, the neighborhood where you know, the neighborhood where they live, that person would they live, that person would they live, that person would have more have more have more resources. So I resources. So I resources. So I really think we're really think we're really think we're going to...You going to...You going to...You can only solve this can only solve this can only solve this problem by problem by problem by working on working on real-world community and real-world policy. The MIT libraries are quiet and MIT libraries are quiet and empty. They are empty. They are empty. They are no longer a gathering place. I no longer a gathering place. I no longer a gathering place. I mean, you know, mean, you know, mean, you know, being a professor there and being a professor there and being a professor there and seeing empty halls, seeing empty halls, seeing empty halls, then the library then the library then the library empty, it's...it's the empty, it's...it's the empty, it's...it's the institutions I institutions I institutions I mean, I'm certainly mean, I'm certainly mean, I'm certainly not saying that there aren't just not saying that there aren't just not saying that there aren't just places where MIT students places where MIT students places where MIT students can gather can gather can gather together. But I together. But I together. But I mean, the places that mean, the places that mean, the places that used to be those used to be those used to be those third places where third places where third places where people were used to people were used to people were used to disagreeing and disagreeing and disagreeing and used to being with each used to being with each used to being with each other, they're other, they're other, they're emptying out, and we have to emptying out, and we have to deal with that. And the fact deal with that. And the fact that you might find that you might find that you might find AI seductive, or AI seductive, or AI seductive, or talking to it might talking to it might talking to it might make you cry, make you cry, make you cry, or we should or we should or we should fix the world.

fix the world. fix the world. Let me Let me Let me finish on your finish on your finish on your endgame idea. You endgame idea. You endgame idea. You said it was said it was said it was important to you. So, important to you. So, important to you. So, what is the end game for you what is the end game for you what is the end game for you ? ? ? Well, I have a different Well, I have a different Well, I have a different end game than they do end game than they do . . . What do you think What do you think What do you think their end game is? their end game is? their end game is? I think their I think their I think their end game is that end game is that end game is that they're okay. they're okay. they're okay. I mean, well, I I mean, well, I I mean, well, I go back to Mark go back to Mark go back to Mark Zuckerberg. I think Zuckerberg. I think Zuckerberg. I think he's going to he's going to he's going to study you and he's going to study you and he's going to study you and he's going to show you these 13 show you these 13 show you these 13 people on the screen, these 13 people on the screen, these 13 people on the screen, these 13 fake people. I fake people. I fake people. I think this is really a think this is really a think this is really a business plan. I believe this is the business plan. I believe this is the business plan. I believe this is the world world world we are moving towards. we are moving towards. we are moving towards. Maybe they'll start Maybe they'll start Maybe they'll start convincing you convincing you convincing you to buy things, and... to buy things, and... to buy things, and... Oh, sure. I Oh, sure. I Oh, sure. I mean, there will be mean, there will be mean, there will be some kind of some kind of some kind of affiliate affiliate affiliate marketing. there will marketing. there will marketing. there will be everything, every be everything, every be everything, every damn thing on this damn thing on this damn thing on this thing. And, um, my thing. And, um, my thing. And, um, my ultimate goal is for ultimate goal is for ultimate goal is for us to us to us to use this use this use this moment of, I would say, moment of, I would say, moment of, I would say, justified justified justified skepticism about skepticism about skepticism about this industry and this this industry and this this industry and this technology. I think technology. I think technology. I think we have a very we have a very we have a very small window where small window where small window where we have justified we have justified we have justified skepticism and maybe skepticism and maybe a chance to, you know, a chance to, you know, a chance to, you know, take a step back. I'm take a step back. I'm take a step back. I'm not sure what it is not sure what it is not sure what it is , but I think it's a , but I think it's a , but I think it's a window. I think window. I think window. I think we have a window for we have a window for we have a window for democracy. I think democracy. I think democracy. I think we have a window to we have a window to we have a window to work with this industry work with this industry . I think these two . I think these two . I think these two concepts really go concepts really go concepts really go hand in hand. Because hand in hand. Because hand in hand. Because I think I think I think democracy is really democracy is really democracy is really at stake.

at stake. at stake. If you can If you can If you can only deal with only deal with only deal with fake friends and fake friends and fake friends and you really don't want to you really don't want to you really don't want to confront confront confront your neighbors. So, your neighbors. So, your neighbors. So, you know, I believe in a you know, I believe in a you know, I believe in a strategy to strategy to strategy to rebuild the world, uh rebuild the world, uh , right now. , right now. , right now. So now our So now our So now our last question. What are a last question. What are a last question. What are a few books you would few books you would few books you would recommend to recommend to recommend to the audience? the audience? the audience? Three books. I have Three books. I have Three books. I have three books. I've really three books. I've really three books. I've really thought a lot about my thought a lot about my thought a lot about my three books because I three books because I three books because I think they're really the think they're really the think they're really the books that shaped books that shaped books that shaped my argument. my argument. my argument. The first is D. W. The first is D. W. The first is D. W. Winnicott, “Play and Winnicott, “Play and Winnicott, “Play and Reality.” Because it's Reality.” Because it's Reality.” Because it's a little hard a little hard a little hard to read, but it... to read, but it... to read, but it... I had a hard time I had a hard time I had a hard time reading it. It is reading it. It is reading it. It is difficult to read. Hmm, difficult to read. Hmm, difficult to read. Hmm, but he...he...it's but he...he...it's but he...he...it's fundamental... fundamental... Winnicott says something, Winnicott says something, Winnicott says something, he says, "If you don't he says, "If you don't he says, "If you don't teach your children teach your children teach your children to be alone, they to be alone, they to be alone, they will only know how will only know how will only know how to be alone." to be alone." to be alone." Hmm. Hmm. And he means that And he means that you need you need you need solitude— solitude— the capacity for the capacity for the capacity for solitude—to solitude—to solitude—to feel like a feel like a feel like a whole person whole person whole person and to be able to go and to be able to go and to be able to go to someone else and to someone else and to someone else and say, “Well, look, say, “Well, look, say, “Well, look, this is who I am. Who are you? this is who I am. Who are you? this is who I am. Who are you? Tell me about yourself Tell me about yourself . Instead of " . Instead of " I have no idea who I have no idea who I have no idea who I am." Who should I be? " I am." Who should I be? " I am." Who should I be? " Tell me who I should Tell me who I should Tell me who I should be." Which is not a be." Which is not a be." Which is not a relationship, which is a kind of relationship, which is a kind of relationship, which is a kind of fusion fusion fusion of narcissism. This is not of narcissism. This is not of narcissism. This is not good. This is not what good. This is not what good. This is not what you want for your you want for your you want for your child. They child. They child. They will always be alone. And will always be alone. And will always be alone. And lonely. They lonely. They lonely. They will always be lonely. And will always be lonely. And will always be lonely. And the second one is, uh, Hannah the second one is, uh, Hannah the second one is, uh, Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Arendt, "The Origins of Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism." Because

Totalitarianism." Because Totalitarianism." Because she says, "Look, she says, "Look, she says, "Look, your your your freedom of action can be taken away if you freedom of action can be taken away if you freedom of action can be taken away if you really lose your really lose your really lose your sense of community, your sense of community, your sense of community, your sense of neighbor, your sense of neighbor, your sense of neighbor, your sense of caring for the sense of caring for the sense of caring for the society in which society in which society in which you live." Which I you live." Which I you live." Which I think is really...I think is really...I think is really...I think she's having a think she's having a think she's having a moment right now, because I think moment right now, because I think moment right now, because I think we're in a lot of we're in a lot of we're in a lot of danger right now on this danger right now on this danger right now on this . And the third is . And the third is . And the third is Joseph Weizenbaum, " Joseph Weizenbaum, " Computer Computer Computer Power and Power and Power and Human Intelligence." Human Intelligence." Human Intelligence." A book that talks A book that talks A book that talks about the Elise program, about the Elise program, about the Elise program, yes, but he also yes, but he also yes, but he also talks about talks about talks about technology in general. technology in general. technology in general. So if you So if you So if you think not just about think not just about think not just about computers computers computers being like people, but being like people, but being like people, but about people about people about people being like machines, you're being like machines, you're being like machines, you're giving up your giving up your giving up your agency to agency to agency to technology in a technology in a technology in a very dangerous very dangerous very dangerous way. And so I think way. And so I think those three books, those three books, those three books, you know, for me you know, for me you know, for me were always in the back of my were always in the back of my were always in the back of my mind when I was writing mind when I was writing mind when I was writing this book. So, those are my this book. So, those are my this book. So, those are my three books. three books. three books. Sherry Turkle, Sherry Turkle, Sherry Turkle, thank you very much.