What the Church Growth Movement Got Wrong (And Right)

Some of the people I knew and Some of the people I knew and admired, etc., made admired, etc., made admired, etc., made decisions that had very decisions that had very decisions that had very detrimental effects on their lives, their detrimental effects on their lives, their detrimental effects on their lives, their marriages, and their ministries. Several marriages, and their ministries. Several marriages, and their ministries. Several people, but for me it all happened people, but for me it all happened people, but for me it all happened in one year. in one year. in one year. People I know. People I know. People I know. Very focused. And I was actually Very focused. And I was actually Very focused. And I was actually a little depressed at that time because I was only just a little depressed at that time because I was only just a little depressed at that time because I was only just now entering into now entering into now entering into compassion, and I remember thinking compassion, and I remember thinking compassion, and I remember thinking this: Is this going to be my destiny? this: Is this going to be my destiny? this: Is this going to be my destiny? Welcome to Carey Nieuwhof's leadership podcast Welcome to Carey Nieuwhof's leadership podcast Welcome to Carey Nieuwhof's leadership podcast . I'm so glad you joined us . I'm so glad you joined us . I'm so glad you joined us today. I today. I today. I truly hope that our time together today will truly hope that our time together today will truly hope that our time together today will help you thrive in life and help you thrive in life and help you thrive in life and leadership. Jimmy Miyatou, a name leadership. Jimmy Miyatou, a name leadership. Jimmy Miyatou, a name known to many people in known to many people in known to many people in church leadership. He is currently church leadership. He is currently church leadership. He is currently the CEO of Compassion. the CEO of Compassion. the CEO of Compassion. He was the former executive director of Willow He was the former executive director of Willow He was the former executive director of Willow Creek Association or Global Leadership Creek Association or Global Leadership Creek Association or Global Leadership Network, as it is now called. We talked Network, as it is now called. We talked Network, as it is now called. We talked about the strengths and weaknesses of the about the strengths and weaknesses of the about the strengths and weaknesses of the megachurch movement, megachurch movement, megachurch movement, healthy and unhealthy growth and scale healthy and unhealthy growth and scale healthy and unhealthy growth and scale , what Jimmy believes is , what Jimmy believes is , what Jimmy believes is the best indicator of avoiding the best indicator of avoiding the best indicator of avoiding moral failure or moral failure or moral failure or leadership collapse, and the lessons of an leadership collapse, and the lessons of an leadership collapse, and the lessons of an Olympic athlete. This is a Olympic athlete. This is a Olympic athlete. This is a fairly extensive interview. I've always been fairly extensive interview. I've always been fairly extensive interview. I've always been interested in what motivates a interested in what motivates a interested in what motivates a leader. So we delve into his leader. So we delve into his leader. So we delve into his childhood, into some of the influences he childhood, into some of the influences he childhood, into some of the influences he received growing up both inside and outside the received growing up both inside and outside the received growing up both inside and outside the United States. And how he United States. And how he United States. And how he developed a heart for the poor developed a heart for the poor developed a heart for the poor as a child. And then, wow, as a child. And then, wow, as a child. And then, wow, we have a great analysis of what we have a great analysis of what we have a great analysis of what happened with the growing happened with the growing happened with the growing megachurch movement in the 1990s, 2000s,

megachurch movement in the 1990s, 2000s, megachurch movement in the 1990s, 2000s, and today. If you are a and today. If you are a and today. If you are a young leader, I think this will really give you young leader, I think this will really give you young leader, I think this will really give you some clarity on what is some clarity on what is some clarity on what is happening in the church today. happening in the church today. happening in the church today. I hope you enjoy this episode. I hope you enjoy this episode. I hope you enjoy this episode. If you're looking for program notes, you can If you're looking for program notes, you can If you're looking for program notes, you can find them at my Art of Leadership find them at my Art of Leadership find them at my Art of Leadership Academy. You can go to Art of Leadership Academy. You can go to Art of Leadership Academy. You can go to Art of Leadership Academy.com and join more than 23,000 Academy.com and join more than 23,000 Academy.com and join more than 23,000 leaders who are there. We have leaders who are there. We have leaders who are there. We have excellent conversations about these excellent conversations about these excellent conversations about these topics. Santiago Jimmy Mejía, whom topics. Santiago Jimmy Mejía, whom topics. Santiago Jimmy Mejía, whom we are talking about, is president and we are talking about, is president and we are talking about, is president and CEO of Compassion International. It is CEO of Compassion International. It is CEO of Compassion International. It is a global ministry a global ministry a global ministry dedicated to holistic child development dedicated to holistic child development dedicated to holistic child development in collaboration with in collaboration with in collaboration with local churches. Jimmy is passionate about local churches. Jimmy is passionate about local churches. Jimmy is passionate about Compassion's church-based approach to Compassion's church-based approach to Compassion's church-based approach to freeing children from poverty in freeing children from poverty in freeing children from poverty in the name of Jesus. He obtained his MBA from the name of Jesus. He obtained his MBA from the name of Jesus. He obtained his MBA from Harvard Business School. He is Harvard Business School. He is Harvard Business School. He is also an accomplished athlete who also an accomplished athlete who also an accomplished athlete who competed in the 1998 Olympics and competed in the 1998 Olympics and competed in the 1998 Olympics and holds the national record of his holds the national record of his holds the national record of his native country, El Salvador. Having said that, my native country, El Salvador. Having said that, my native country, El Salvador. Having said that, my conversation with Jimmy Mejía. Jimmy, I'd been conversation with Jimmy Mejía. Jimmy, I'd been conversation with Jimmy Mejía. Jimmy, I'd been waiting for this conversation for a long time waiting for this conversation for a long time waiting for this conversation for a long time . Welcome to the podcast. . Welcome to the podcast. . Welcome to the podcast. Well, me too, Carey. When Well, me too, Carey. When Well, me too, Carey. When I received that request, I told my I received that request, I told my I received that request, I told my team that if Carey asked for something, to team that if Carey asked for something, to team that if Carey asked for something, to accept it. Let's solve it.

accept it. Let's solve it. accept it. Let's solve it. Well, that's very generous of you. Well, that's very generous of you. Well, that's very generous of you. I want to go back to the past because I I want to go back to the past because I I want to go back to the past because I love understanding how a love understanding how a love understanding how a leader is formed, and you have been in the leader is formed, and you have been in the leader is formed, and you have been in the public eye for a long time, both for public eye for a long time, both for public eye for a long time, both for your work at Compassion and for your work at Compassion and for your work at Compassion and for previous ministries, but I believe you were previous ministries, but I believe you were previous ministries, but I believe you were born in El Salvador. Is that right? Yes. born in El Salvador. Is that right? Yes. born in El Salvador. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And your family moved, I think I read, And your family moved, I think I read, And your family moved, I think I read, dozens of times when you were a child. dozens of times when you were a child. Can you explain some of the Can you explain some of the Can you explain some of the influences that shaped your influences that shaped your influences that shaped your childhood? childhood? childhood? Well, to give you some context, my Well, to give you some context, my Well, to give you some context, my father is 96 years old and still alive. father is 96 years old and still alive. father is 96 years old and still alive. Oh. My Oh. My Oh. My mother is 91 and in her 67 years of mother is 91 and in her 67 years of mother is 91 and in her 67 years of marriage they moved 41 times. So marriage they moved 41 times. So marriage they moved 41 times. So we moved a lot. I think I lived we moved a lot. I think I lived we moved a lot. I think I lived in almost a dozen in almost a dozen in almost a dozen different places, mainly in seven different places, mainly in seven different places, mainly in seven countries that were formative for me countries that were formative for me countries that were formative for me around the world, mostly in around the world, mostly in around the world, mostly in developing environments because my father developing environments because my father developing environments because my father was an engineer. He was doing many was an engineer. He was doing many was an engineer. He was doing many projects, electrical projects, projects, electrical projects, projects, electrical projects, roads, dams. I was born in the jungles roads, dams. I was born in the jungles roads, dams. I was born in the jungles of El Salvador because he was of El Salvador because he was of El Salvador because he was building a dam and a building a dam and a building a dam and a power plant. You know, no doctor, power plant. You know, no doctor, power plant. You know, no doctor, natural childbirth, so there you have it.

natural childbirth, so there you have it. natural childbirth, so there you have it. It was an adventure. Oh really. It was an adventure. Oh really. It was an adventure. Oh really. He had a penchant for development, He had a penchant for development, He had a penchant for development, but from an but from an but from an engineering perspective, is that all there is to it? Did he work engineering perspective, is that all there is to it? Did he work engineering perspective, is that all there is to it? Did he work for governments or private companies? for governments or private companies? for governments or private companies? Yes, he grew up on the border between Yes, he grew up on the border between Yes, he grew up on the border between Mexico and the United States, just like Mexico and the United States, just like Mexico and the United States, just like my mother, and at 18 he enlisted my mother, and at 18 he enlisted my mother, and at 18 he enlisted in the army because he wanted to study in the army because he wanted to study in the army because he wanted to study through the GI Bill. What he hadn't through the GI Bill. What he hadn't through the GI Bill. What he hadn't counted on was the Korean War. counted on was the Korean War. counted on was the Korean War. So they sent him to the So they sent him to the So they sent him to the Korean War and he enlisted in the Corps of Korean War and he enlisted in the Corps of Korean War and he enlisted in the Corps of Engineers. Two things happened. In fact Engineers. Two things happened. In fact , I had a conversation with him about , I had a conversation with him about , I had a conversation with him about this last week and I asked him, " this last week and I asked him, " Why did you decide to become an engineer and Why did you decide to become an engineer and Why did you decide to become an engineer and travel the world?" The travel the world?" The travel the world?" The Korean War and being on the other side of the world Korean War and being on the other side of the world Korean War and being on the other side of the world opened his mind, opened his opened his mind, opened his opened his mind, opened his life to the world and to the needs of the life to the world and to the needs of the life to the world and to the needs of the world. He saw that there was a lot of world. He saw that there was a lot of world. He saw that there was a lot of suffering there during the war and then, suffering there during the war and then, suffering there during the war and then, upon joining the Corps of Engineers, he said, upon joining the Corps of Engineers, he said, "You know?" And I asked him, " "You know?" And I asked him, " "You know?" And I asked him, " Why did you do that?" He said, "Well, Why did you do that?" He said, "Well, Why did you do that?" He said, "Well, I prefer to build and make things than, you I prefer to build and make things than, you I prefer to build and make things than, you know, actually what he said was know, actually what he said was know, actually what he said was killing people. But he just wanted to killing people. But he just wanted to killing people. But he just wanted to improve people's lives, and that improve people's lives, and that improve people's lives, and that led him to a led him to a led him to a 55-year engineering career traveling all over the world 55-year engineering career traveling all over the world 55-year engineering career traveling all over the world helping to improve lives.

helping to improve lives. Wow, how did that shape you? Both the Wow, how did that shape you? Both the purpose of your father's work and purpose of your father's work and , you know, that , you know, that , you know, that international exposure from the beginning? It was international exposure from the beginning? It was international exposure from the beginning? It was very very very formative for me, and I loved what he formative for me, and I loved what he formative for me, and I loved what he did. He was a hero to me. I did. He was a hero to me. I did. He was a hero to me. I loved seeing that there was nothing and loved seeing that there was nothing and loved seeing that there was nothing and then a project was done. In El then a project was done. In El then a project was done. In El Salvador—and no, this was Bolivia—there was no Salvador—and no, this was Bolivia—there was no Salvador—and no, this was Bolivia—there was no 24/7 electricity 24/7 electricity 24/7 electricity in Santa in Santa in Santa Cruz, so his project was to Cruz, so his project was to Cruz, so his project was to provide that. There were no televisions provide that. There were no televisions , nothing, and, you know, I could see the impact , nothing, and, you know, I could see the impact , nothing, and, you know, I could see the impact of my father's work, but not just of my father's work, but not just of my father's work, but not just on that front, the exposure to all on that front, the exposure to all on that front, the exposure to all the cultures, to different environments. I the cultures, to different environments. I the cultures, to different environments. I honestly thought it was normal honestly thought it was normal honestly thought it was normal for families to move every year. for families to move every year. for families to move every year. I thought, of course, everyone I thought, of course, everyone I thought, of course, everyone moves every year. I would go." I would be in moves every year. I would go." I would be in moves every year. I would go." I would be in third grade and I would say, "Where are you going to third grade and I would say, "Where are you going to third grade and I would say, "Where are you going to do fourth grade?" "Hey, here." Oh, are do fourth grade?" "Hey, here." Oh, are do fourth grade?" "Hey, here." Oh, are n't you moving? I'm going to Panama. n't you moving? I'm going to Panama. n't you moving? I'm going to Panama. Well, I thought it was normal. Then Well, I thought it was normal. Then Well, I thought it was normal. Then I discovered that no, it wasn't normal. I I discovered that no, it wasn't normal. I I discovered that no, it wasn't normal. I married a woman, and I've lived in the same house married a woman, and I've lived in the same house married a woman, and I've lived in the same house my whole life. I simply didn't have a framework my whole life. I simply didn't have a framework my whole life. I simply didn't have a framework for that. But exposure to for that. But exposure to for that. But exposure to different cultures allowed me to different cultures allowed me to different cultures allowed me to accept and value difference accept and value difference accept and value difference instead of just tolerating it.

instead of just tolerating it. instead of just tolerating it. And accept it instead of just And accept it instead of just And accept it instead of just saying, "Oh yeah, people are saying, "Oh yeah, people are saying, "Oh yeah, people are different. different. different. Different. I don't like it." It was like, "It's Different. I don't like it." It was like, "It's Different. I don't like it." It was like, "It's different. Wow, that's great." I didn't different. Wow, that's great." I didn't different. Wow, that's great." I didn't know it could be done that know it could be done that know it could be done that way. So that was one thing. The way. So that was one thing. The way. So that was one thing. The other thing, because of my family's faith other thing, because of my family's faith other thing, because of my family's faith in Jesus, provided me with a in Jesus, provided me with a in Jesus, provided me with a stable foundation to grow up on. And my brothers. stable foundation to grow up on. And my brothers. stable foundation to grow up on. And my brothers. One would think that moving so much would be One would think that moving so much would be One would think that moving so much would be very detrimental to a very detrimental to a very detrimental to a child's life, and often it is for many child's life, and often it is for many child's life, and often it is for many people, and it's not a good thing. My life people, and it's not a good thing. My life people, and it's not a good thing. My life was so stable not because we lived was so stable not because we lived was so stable not because we lived in the same place, but because Jesus in the same place, but because Jesus in the same place, but because Jesus was the same everywhere. And was the same everywhere. And was the same everywhere. And he was simply a regular part he was simply a regular part he was simply a regular part of our family experience, and I of our family experience, and I of our family experience, and I grew up going to family church grew up going to family church grew up going to family church between countries where we literally between countries where we literally between countries where we literally did church, celebrated the did church, celebrated the did church, celebrated the Lord's Supper, gave teachings, Lord's Supper, gave teachings, Lord's Supper, gave teachings, worshipped and sang as a family, just worshipped and sang as a family, just worshipped and sang as a family, just the six of us in a hotel room. the six of us in a hotel room. the six of us in a hotel room. So that was very normal for So that was very normal for So that was very normal for me, and wherever they were, they were me, and wherever they were, they were me, and wherever they were, they were always involved in always involved in always involved in church life. And since my mother grew up in church life. And since my mother grew up in church life. And since my mother grew up in poverty, on a dirt floor, and my poverty, on a dirt floor, and my poverty, on a dirt floor, and my father was a migrant farmer on the father was a migrant farmer on the father was a migrant farmer on the border between the United States and Mexico border between the United States and Mexico , near where my father was raised, , near where my father was raised, , near where my father was raised, she always made us participants in the she always made us participants in the she always made us participants in the life of the poor. Little did I know that life of the poor. Little did I know that life of the poor. Little did I know that exposure to all those cultures, exposure to all those cultures, exposure to all those cultures, countries, environments, the church and countries, environments, the church and countries, environments, the church and all its different expressions and all its different expressions and all its different expressions and varieties of worship and teaching, and in varieties of worship and teaching, and in varieties of worship and teaching, and in different contexts, was a true different contexts, was a true different contexts, was a true training and preparation for what I training and preparation for what I

training and preparation for what I do now. In fact, my mother do now. In fact, my mother do now. In fact, my mother fortunately attended the fortunately attended the fortunately attended the ceremony in which West Dafford, my ceremony in which West Dafford, my ceremony in which West Dafford, my predecessor, passed the torch to me about predecessor, passed the torch to me about predecessor, passed the torch to me about 13 years ago. I was in the restroom and 13 years ago. I was in the restroom and 13 years ago. I was in the restroom and then he approached me, stood in then he approached me, stood in then he approached me, stood in front of me and didn't say a word front of me and didn't say a word . I said to her, "Mom, are you going to say . I said to her, "Mom, are you going to say . I said to her, "Mom, are you going to say something?" "And he hugged me and pushed me something?" "And he hugged me and pushed me something?" "And he hugged me and pushed me back and tried to say a back and tried to say a back and tried to say a word, but he couldn't. Three times. And word, but he couldn't. Three times. And word, but he couldn't. Three times. And then he quickly whispered in my ear, then he quickly whispered in my ear, 'We'll talk later.' Which 'We'll talk later.' Which 'We'll talk later.' Which means, 'We'll talk later.' means, 'We'll talk later.' means, 'We'll talk later.' So, the next day I said to him, ' So, the next day I said to him, ' So, the next day I said to him, ' Mom, what was going on?'" "And she Mom, what was going on?'" "And she Mom, what was going on?'" "And she said, "You know, during the ceremony I realized said, "You know, during the ceremony I realized said, "You know, during the ceremony I realized that a parent never thinks that a parent never thinks that a parent never thinks that growing up in poverty is a that growing up in poverty is a that growing up in poverty is a benefit to their children." I never thought benefit to their children." I never thought benefit to their children." I never thought that growing up in poverty would be a that growing up in poverty would be a that growing up in poverty would be a benefit to me or my children, benefit to me or my children, benefit to me or my children, but I could see how growing up in but I could see how growing up in but I could see how growing up in poverty and being involved in the poverty and being involved in the poverty and being involved in the lives of the poor passed on a lives of the poor passed on a lives of the poor passed on a certain DNA to the soul that otherwise would certain DNA to the soul that otherwise would certain DNA to the soul that otherwise would n't have been there, and it has n't have been there, and it has n't have been there, and it has become fundamental to your become fundamental to your become fundamental to your vocation in life. So I was able to see vocation in life. So I was able to see vocation in life. So I was able to see the long arc of God's work and the the long arc of God's work and the the long arc of God's work and the reorientation and good that his reorientation and good that his reorientation and good that his growing up in poverty brought to the growing up in poverty brought to the growing up in poverty brought to the lives of his children and, you know, to his lives of his children and, you know, to his lives of his children and, you know, to his son in this case. And that overwhelmed me and I son in this case. And that overwhelmed me and I son in this case. And that overwhelmed me and I couldn't utter a word.

couldn't utter a word. couldn't utter a word. Oh. That is a truly Oh. That is a truly Oh. That is a truly special moment. You know, it's funny because special moment. You know, it's funny because special moment. You know, it's funny because you mentioned you mentioned you mentioned international exposure, and I didn't have it. In international exposure, and I didn't have it. In international exposure, and I didn't have it. In fact, I grew up very close to the fact, I grew up very close to the fact, I grew up very close to the US border, in Windsor, Ontario, but US border, in Windsor, Ontario, but US border, in Windsor, Ontario, but way up north. way up north. way up north. Yes. Yes. And it always interested me, but from my And it always interested me, but from my point of view I'm very American. point of view I'm very American. point of view I'm very American. And I think it was only 22 years ago that I And I think it was only 22 years ago that I And I think it was only 22 years ago that I went to a developing country for the first time went to a developing country for the first time went to a developing country for the first time . I went to Guatemala, where . I went to Guatemala, where . I went to Guatemala, where our church has been involved for two decades our church has been involved for two decades our church has been involved for two decades . And well, you can read about . And well, you can read about . And well, you can read about it, you can make donations, you can it, you can make donations, you can it, you can make donations, you can travel to the Caribbean. Alright. You can travel to the Caribbean. Alright. You can travel to the Caribbean. Alright. You can travel to Europe. When you go to a travel to Europe. When you go to a travel to Europe. When you go to a developing country, you unlock a developing country, you unlock a developing country, you unlock a part of my heart that I didn't know part of my heart that I didn't know part of my heart that I didn't know existed. And you grew up, and that's one of existed. And you grew up, and that's one of existed. And you grew up, and that's one of the reasons why Tony and I the reasons why Tony and I the reasons why Tony and I love collaborating with Compassion. love collaborating with Compassion. love collaborating with Compassion. It's like we're seeing what you do It's like we're seeing what you do It's like we're seeing what you do on the ground. We've been to a on the ground. We've been to a on the ground. We've been to a few countries. Simply...Yes, few countries. Simply...Yes, few countries. Simply...Yes, simply...Yes, and there's no way to simply...Yes, and there's no way to simply...Yes, and there's no way to describe it. But that really describe it. But that really describe it. But that really shaped you. I'm also curious to shaped you. I'm also curious to shaped you. I'm also curious to know how the friendship worked know how the friendship worked know how the friendship worked because we moved around a lot. And I've because we moved around a lot. And I've because we moved around a lot. And I've said this before on the podcast, said this before on the podcast, said this before on the podcast, but when I was 10 years old I made a but when I was 10 years old I made a but when I was 10 years old I made a vow that I wasn't going to make any more friends vow that I wasn't going to make any more friends vow that I wasn't going to make any more friends because it hurt too much. And then because it hurt too much. And then because it hurt too much. And then we ended up staying in that we ended up staying in that we ended up staying in that community for another 15 years. So I community for another 15 years. So I community for another 15 years. So I thought, well, I was silly. But did you thought, well, I was silly. But did you thought, well, I was silly. But did you keep to yourself? Did you stay with keep to yourself? Did you stay with keep to yourself? Did you stay with your family? Did you make friends

your family? Did you make friends your family? Did you make friends quickly? How did that work out for you quickly? How did that work out for you quickly? How did that work out for you with people? with people? with people? I would say that the first thing is that my I would say that the first thing is that my I would say that the first thing is that my brothers were my best friends. So brothers were my best friends. So brothers were my best friends. So my family unit was very strong, my family unit was very strong, my family unit was very strong, stable, and loving. Those have been my stable, and loving. Those have been my stable, and loving. Those have been my constant relationships to this day constant relationships to this day constant relationships to this day . My best friends are my . My best friends are my . My best friends are my brothers and we are very close. It's always been like this brothers and we are very close. It's always been like this brothers and we are very close. It's always been like this . So that provided . So that provided . So that provided a foundation that took us everywhere, a foundation that took us everywhere, a foundation that took us everywhere, you know? And undoubtedly, friendship with you know? And undoubtedly, friendship with you know? And undoubtedly, friendship with Jesus was also fundamental in that. Jesus was also fundamental in that. Jesus was also fundamental in that. But as we went from place to But as we went from place to But as we went from place to place, you learn to make friends place, you learn to make friends place, you learn to make friends quickly. quickly. You think? You think? You think? Because you want them to know you, you want them to Because you want them to know you, you want them to Because you want them to know you, you want them to love you, you want them to accept you. And love you, you want them to accept you. And love you, you want them to accept you. And for me, a bit of athletics was a for me, a bit of athletics was a for me, a bit of athletics was a way to make friends. Join the team way to make friends. Join the team . Now I have a group of friends on the . Now I have a group of friends on the . Now I have a group of friends on the soccer team, on the soccer team, on the soccer team, on the track and field team, on the baseball team. track and field team, on the baseball team. track and field team, on the baseball team. So we were very, very So we were very, very So we were very, very involved in sports. involved in sports. involved in sports. You all know my family and that certainly You all know my family and that certainly You all know my family and that certainly helped, being able to meet people helped, being able to meet people helped, being able to meet people quickly and trying to be a good quickly and trying to be a good quickly and trying to be a good athlete helped because then you were like athlete helped because then you were like athlete helped because then you were like someone loved. So all of those someone loved. So all of those someone loved. So all of those were really positive things. In were really positive things. In were really positive things. In fact, if there are some books fact, if there are some books fact, if there are some books written on the subject, it's about a written on the subject, it's about a written on the subject, it's about a third-culture child who always third-culture child who always third-culture child who always grows up in an environment that is not that of grows up in an environment that is not that of grows up in an environment that is not that of either of your parents' passport countries either of your parents' passport countries either of your parents' passport countries . You're always that . You're always that . You're always that third-culture kid. So there are some third-culture kid. So there are some third-culture kid. So there are some really amazing things that really amazing things that really amazing things that come out of that. All the things we

come out of that. All the things we come out of that. All the things we 've talked about, exposure to the 've talked about, exposure to the 've talked about, exposure to the world in different environments and the world in different environments and the world in different environments and the appreciation of difference, are appreciation of difference, are appreciation of difference, are great things. However, the great things. However, the great things. However, the downside I really had to downside I really had to downside I really had to deal with was that it was actually double. deal with was that it was actually double. deal with was that it was actually double. Because you want to be accepted, and all Because you want to be accepted, and all Because you want to be accepted, and all children want that, you learn to children want that, you learn to children want that, you learn to please others. You learn to please others. You learn to please others. You learn to become what people want you to be. become what people want you to be. become what people want you to be. And then you don't know who you are. And then you don't know who you are. And then you don't know who you are. Yes. Yes. Are you who you are, or are you who you think Are you who you are, or are you who you think Are you who you are, or are you who you think people want you to be? So, people want you to be? So, people want you to be? So, please people, and then, please people, and then, please people, and then, manage your image, because if they know manage your image, because if they know manage your image, because if they know bad things about you, maybe they won't bad things about you, maybe they won't bad things about you, maybe they won't want to be your friends. So want to be your friends. So want to be your friends. So you learn to manage your image, you learn to manage your image, you learn to manage your image, you learn to please people, and that you learn to please people, and that you learn to please people, and that has a really dark side to has a really dark side to has a really dark side to life. And in leadership as well, in the life. And in leadership as well, in the life. And in leadership as well, in the end, it's simply deadly if those end, it's simply deadly if those end, it's simply deadly if those two engines of pleasing people and two engines of pleasing people and two engines of pleasing people and managing image fuel your managing image fuel your managing image fuel your life more than is healthy. So I life more than is healthy. So I life more than is healthy. So I had to process that too. had to process that too. Well, you've described the Well, you've described the Achilles' heel of all of us who have Achilles' heel of all of us who have Achilles' heel of all of us who have public or semi-public roles, haven't you?

public or semi-public roles, haven't you? public or semi-public roles, haven't you? Meeting new people, managing your Meeting new people, managing your Meeting new people, managing your image, and pleasing people. I mean image, and pleasing people. I mean image, and pleasing people. I mean , welcome to the world of 90% of , welcome to the world of 90% of , welcome to the world of 90% of the people who listen to this podcast the people who listen to this podcast the people who listen to this podcast because, you know, you think about when you because, you know, you think about when you because, you know, you think about when you were at Willow and in other were at Willow and in other were at Willow and in other ministry roles and now at Compassion, ministry roles and now at Compassion, what do you do? You meet new people what do you do? You meet new people what do you do? You meet new people all the time. You're always all the time. You're always all the time. You're always interacting with people. You have a interacting with people. You have a interacting with people. You have a public or semi-public profile. public or semi-public profile. When did you become aware of those two When did you become aware of those two When did you become aware of those two dark sides of, you know, growing up, dark sides of, you know, growing up, dark sides of, you know, growing up, moving all the time, and having to moving all the time, and having to moving all the time, and having to manage your image and please manage your image and please manage your image and please people? Was it in your early people? Was it in your early people? Was it in your early teens? Did it hit you in your 30s or teens? Did it hit you in your 30s or teens? Did it hit you in your 30s or 40s? When did you realize, 40s? When did you realize, 40s? When did you realize, oh, strength and weakness, there we go? oh, strength and weakness, there we go? oh, strength and weakness, there we go? Yes, I would say it was in Yes, I would say it was in Yes, I would say it was in high school. high school. high school. High school? High school? High school? High school, and that's High school, and that's High school, and that's when we moved from Panama. After when we moved from Panama. After when we moved from Panama. After finishing high school, we finishing high school, we finishing high school, we moved to Texas, here in the moved to Texas, here in the moved to Texas, here in the United States, and I graduated from United States, and I graduated from United States, and I graduated from high school in Texas. Well, I didn't know high school in Texas. Well, I didn't know high school in Texas. Well, I didn't know anything, but we were Americans by anything, but we were Americans by anything, but we were Americans by citizenship, you know, wherever we citizenship, you know, wherever we citizenship, you know, wherever we went; And my went; And my went; And my parents always did it, because parents always did it, because parents always did it, because American schools were usually the highest American schools were usually the highest American schools were usually the highest quality, so Spanish was my quality, so Spanish was my quality, so Spanish was my first language, but I learned English first language, but I learned English first language, but I learned English at school, because I always went to at school, because I always went to at school, because I always went to American schools. But I always realized that American schools. But I always realized that American schools. But I always realized that wherever we went wherever we went wherever we went , if it was Bolivia, , if it was Bolivia, , if it was Bolivia, Americans thought I was

Americans thought I was Americans thought I was Bolivian. They didn't consider me Bolivian. They didn't consider me Bolivian. They didn't consider me American. If it was Nicaragua, the American. If it was Nicaragua, the American. If it was Nicaragua, the Americans thought he was Americans thought he was Americans thought he was Nicaraguan. If it was Panama, they thought she Nicaraguan. If it was Panama, they thought she Nicaraguan. If it was Panama, they thought she was Panamanian. I thought, "No, I'm was Panamanian. I thought, "No, I'm was Panamanian. I thought, "No, I'm American." I still wanted to be American." I still wanted to be American." I still wanted to be accepted as an American. And accepted as an American. And accepted as an American. And so, we finally arrived in the so, we finally arrived in the so, we finally arrived in the United States and I said, "Great! They're going to United States and I said, "Great! They're going to United States and I said, "Great! They're going to consider me an American. I'm with a consider me an American. I'm with a consider me an American. I'm with a lot of Americans. They're going to lot of Americans. They're going to lot of Americans. They're going to consider me an American. That's consider me an American. That's consider me an American. That's great." And no, the Americans great." And no, the Americans great." And no, the Americans thought I was Mexican. And well, thought I was Mexican. And well, thought I was Mexican. And well, and I, and I, and I'm in culture and and I, and I, and I'm in culture and and I, and I, and I'm in culture and background and parents and, you know, very background and parents and, you know, very background and parents and, you know, very Hispanic, no doubt, and Latin American, Hispanic, no doubt, and Latin American, Hispanic, no doubt, and Latin American, no doubt. But, again, it no doubt. But, again, it no doubt. But, again, it was always from the outside, looking was always from the outside, looking was always from the outside, looking inwards. inwards. inwards. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Hey, new, hey, from the outside, wanting to Hey, new, hey, from the outside, wanting to Hey, new, hey, from the outside, wanting to be accepted. And so I began to feel be accepted. And so I began to feel be accepted. And so I began to feel even more energy in terms of denying even more energy in terms of denying even more energy in terms of denying who I was and wanting to be seen not who I was and wanting to be seen not who I was and wanting to be seen not as Hispanic, but as American as Hispanic, but as American as Hispanic, but as American and Caucasian, and wanting to integrate as much as and Caucasian, and wanting to integrate as much as and Caucasian, and wanting to integrate as much as possible. And as I began possible. And as I began possible. And as I began to see and feel that there were some to see and feel that there were some to see and feel that there were some unhealthy dynamics that I started unhealthy dynamics that I started unhealthy dynamics that I started to notice because if you feel that you can't to notice because if you feel that you can't to notice because if you feel that you can't show yourself with all that you are, you feel show yourself with all that you are, you feel show yourself with all that you are, you feel that you have to hide your soul. And that that you have to hide your soul. And that that you have to hide your soul. And that has consequences that are has consequences that are has consequences that are n't good because you don't feel like they n't good because you don't feel like they n't good because you don't feel like they know you. Really? You don't feel that they know you. Really? You don't feel that they know you. Really? You don't feel that they truly love you because they don't know you.

truly love you because they don't know you. truly love you because they don't know you. So that's when I moved to the United States So that's when I moved to the United States So that's when I moved to the United States . . . And that disappointment I experienced, And that disappointment I experienced, And that disappointment I experienced, I remember that a guy I remember that a guy I remember that a guy would literally call me for a different Mexican meal would literally call me for a different Mexican meal would literally call me for a different Mexican meal every time he saw me. Hello every time he saw me. Hello every time he saw me. Hello tamale, how are you? You already know. Hello tamale, how are you? You already know. Hello tamale, how are you? You already know. Hello little donkey. And I was like, wow, little donkey. And I was like, wow, little donkey. And I was like, wow, really? You know, they would ask me questions really? You know, they would ask me questions really? You know, they would ask me questions like, Jeff, did you canoe to like, Jeff, did you canoe to like, Jeff, did you canoe to school when you lived in these countries school when you lived in these countries ? I mean, it's just the ? I mean, it's just the ? I mean, it's just the craziest thing you know that happens, and that's when craziest thing you know that happens, and that's when craziest thing you know that happens, and that's when I started to realize I started to realize I started to realize that I had to be careful about it that I had to be careful about it that I had to be careful about it because it was hindering my because it was hindering my because it was hindering my growth in Christ. At that time, I growth in Christ. At that time, I growth in Christ. At that time, I took my faith in Christ very seriously took my faith in Christ very seriously took my faith in Christ very seriously and realized that I was not a good and realized that I was not a good and realized that I was not a good influence. influence. influence. This episode is presented by AI and This episode is presented by AI and This episode is presented by AI and the Future Church. Hi, I hope you're the Future Church. Hi, I hope you're the Future Church. Hi, I hope you're getting a lot out of getting a lot out of getting a lot out of today's conversation, but a few today's conversation, but a few today's conversation, but a few quick words before we get back to the quick words before we get back to the quick words before we get back to the topic. My book, AI and the Future topic. My book, AI and the Future topic. My book, AI and the Future Church, was officially released a month ago Church, was officially released a month ago . I love receiving your . I love receiving your . I love receiving your comments about it. Today marks comments about it. Today marks comments about it. Today marks one month since its launch, and it has been very one month since its launch, and it has been very one month since its launch, and it has been very encouraging to see the conversations it has encouraging to see the conversations it has encouraging to see the conversations it has generated in churches about the generated in churches about the generated in churches about the impact that AI is having both impact that AI is having both impact that AI is having both on the culture around us and on their on the culture around us and on their on the culture around us and on their congregation. But many of you congregation. But many of you congregation. But many of you are starting to wonder, "Well, are starting to wonder, "Well, are starting to wonder, "Well, where do I begin?", because there is so where do I begin?", because there is so where do I begin?", because there is so much to do. Well, the book much to do. Well, the book much to do. Well, the book guides you through the three changes you guides you through the three changes you guides you through the three changes you can start making in your ministry right now can start making in your ministry right now can start making in your ministry right now , and my team and I have , and my team and I have , and my team and I have created a complementary AI hub created a complementary AI hub created a complementary AI hub to help you discover where to help you discover where your churches currently stand, what's worth addressing

your churches currently stand, what's worth addressing first, and how to get your team on first, and how to get your team on first, and how to get your team on board. The book is sold board. The book is sold board. The book is sold wherever you buy your wherever you buy your wherever you buy your books, but to access the books, but to access the books, but to access the AI ​​center, here's what you need to do. Go to AI ​​center, here's what you need to do. Go to AI ​​center, here's what you need to do. Go to aifuture.church. It's a beautiful aifuture.church. It's a beautiful aifuture.church. It's a beautiful complement to the book. Go to complement to the book. Go to complement to the book. Go to aifuture.church. We update it aifuture.church. We update it aifuture.church. We update it constantly. I'm eager to get constantly. I'm eager to get constantly. I'm eager to get the book and the center into your hands. This the book and the center into your hands. This the book and the center into your hands. This episode is presented by The Chosen. episode is presented by The Chosen. episode is presented by The Chosen. Across six episodes Across six episodes Across six episodes beginning this fall and arriving beginning this fall and arriving beginning this fall and arriving in spring, The in spring, The in spring, The Chosen takes viewers to the foot Chosen takes viewers to the foot Chosen takes viewers to the foot of the cross to see of the cross to see of the cross to see God's unparalleled love in the God's unparalleled love in the God's unparalleled love in the selfless act of his Son. The new selfless act of his Son. The new selfless act of his Son. The new season of the television series season of the television series season of the television series The Chosen will premiere exclusively The Chosen will premiere exclusively The Chosen will premiere exclusively on Prime Video on November 15, on Prime Video on November 15, on Prime Video on November 15, when the journey to the cross begins when the journey to the cross begins . But from now until . But from now until . But from now until November 14, churches will be able to November 14, churches will be able to November 14, churches will be able to exclusively broadcast the first episode of this exclusively broadcast the first episode of this exclusively broadcast the first episode of this new season at no cost. new season at no cost. Visit comeandsee.net/church for Visit comeandsee.net/church for more information and to register more information and to register . It's comeandsee.net/church. And then, . It's comeandsee.net/church. And then, . It's comeandsee.net/church. And then, The Chosen Crucifixion will premiere The Chosen Crucifixion will premiere The Chosen Crucifixion will premiere exclusively in theaters on March 12, exclusively in theaters on March 12, exclusively in theaters on March 12, 2027. Make plans now to enjoy 2027. Make plans now to enjoy 2027. Make plans now to enjoy this powerful film with your this powerful film with your this powerful film with your church during Lent. First of all church during Lent. First of all church during Lent. First of all , I'm sorry that happened. You , I'm sorry that happened. You , I'm sorry that happened. You know, bullying affects all know, bullying affects all know, bullying affects all kinds of people in different ways.

kinds of people in different ways. I read on the internet—and you can never completely trust the I read on the internet—and you can never completely trust the internet—that Jimmy versus internet—that Jimmy versus ...am I pronouncing that right, Santiago ...am I pronouncing that right, Santiago ? Santiago. ? Santiago. ? Santiago. Santiago. Okay. Santiago. Okay. Santiago. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Your real name isn't Jimmy. Is that right? Your real name isn't Jimmy. Is that right? Your real name isn't Jimmy. Is that right? Correct. Correct. Correct. So how did you come to know yourself as So how did you come to know yourself as So how did you come to know yourself as Jimmy? Jimmy? Well, my real name is Santiago Well, my real name is Santiago Eriberto Mellado. And Santiago, Eriberto Mellado. And Santiago, Eriberto Mellado. And Santiago, literally translated, is Saint James. Saint literally translated, is Saint James. Saint literally translated, is Saint James. Saint James. So, James. So, James. So, oh, yes. That would be it. oh, yes. That would be it. oh, yes. That would be it. Well, that's where it comes from, but they removed Well, that's where it comes from, but they removed Well, that's where it comes from, but they removed the part about Saint in English. In the part about Saint in English. In the part about Saint in English. In Spanish, they maintain it. Saint Tiago, Spanish, they maintain it. Saint Tiago, Spanish, they maintain it. Saint Tiago, Santiago. In English, it's simply Santiago. In English, it's simply Santiago. In English, it's simply James. And then my father, when he went to those James. And then my father, when he went to those James. And then my father, when he went to those American schools, said, "Well, I'll American schools, said, "Well, I'll American schools, said, "Well, I'll just call you Jimmy." just call you Jimmy." So Jimmy stayed, and then So Jimmy stayed, and then Jimmy stayed the whole time. What Jimmy stayed the whole time. What Jimmy stayed the whole time. What 's interesting in terms of 's interesting in terms of 's interesting in terms of even this leading to compassion even this leading to compassion even this leading to compassion was, uh, I remember sitting in a was, uh, I remember sitting in a was, uh, I remember sitting in a church meeting, and our church meeting, and our church meeting, and our pastor had read Divided by pastor had read Divided by pastor had read Divided by Faith, talking about racism in the Faith, talking about racism in the Faith, talking about racism in the church. Now, I've probably been in the United States for 15 church. Now, I've probably been in the United States for 15 church. Now, I've probably been in the United States for 15 or 20 years. This or 20 years. This or 20 years. This happened in Willow, and I was sitting in happened in Willow, and I was sitting in happened in Willow, and I was sitting in the circle when, you know, the pastor the circle when, you know, the pastor the circle when, you know, the pastor said, "Hey, we're not reflecting the said, "Hey, we're not reflecting the said, "Hey, we're not reflecting the diversity in our community, which is diversity in our community, which is diversity in our community, which is over 20%, and we're at 2-3% over 20%, and we're at 2-3% over 20%, and we're at 2-3% diversity. We don't have diversity in diversity. We don't have diversity in diversity. We don't have diversity in our congregation, in our our congregation, in our our congregation, in our staff, and I was the president of the

staff, and I was the president of the staff, and I was the president of the Willow Creek Association at the Willow Creek Association at the Willow Creek Association at the time, and I said, 'And we have time, and I said, 'And we have time, and I said, 'And we have absolutely no diversity in absolutely no diversity in absolutely no diversity in our leadership.' I thought, 'Oh, that our leadership.' I thought, 'Oh, that our leadership.' I thought, 'Oh, that 's interesting.' 's interesting.' So So I raised my hand and said, 'Well, everyone I raised my hand and said, 'Well, everyone I raised my hand and said, 'Well, everyone knows my real name is Santiago knows my real name is Santiago knows my real name is Santiago Roberto Mellado.' It's not Jimmy. Jimmy is Roberto Mellado.' It's not Jimmy. Jimmy is Roberto Mellado.' It's not Jimmy. Jimmy is a nickname. "And that I'm Hispanic." And everyone a nickname. "And that I'm Hispanic." And everyone a nickname. "And that I'm Hispanic." And everyone laughed, but the person next to laughed, but the person next to laughed, but the person next to me leaned in and said, "Oh, but me leaned in and said, "Oh, but me leaned in and said, "Oh, but you don't count." And I thought, "Well, you don't count." And I thought, "Well, you don't count." And I thought, "Well, I know this person." "I didn't want to I know this person." "I didn't want to I know this person." "I didn't want to hurt myself at all." They're hurt myself at all." They're hurt myself at all." They're serious. Yes. They were serious. Yes. They were serious. Yes. They were n't serious. They meant to say, n't serious. They meant to say, n't serious. They meant to say, 'You're one of us, but you don't count 'You're one of us, but you don't count .' But two things really struck me at .' But two things really struck me at .' But two things really struck me at that moment, even though I was that moment, even though I was that moment, even though I was laughing on the outside. The first thought was: ' laughing on the outside. The first thought was: ' Well, that little boy who wanted to Well, that little boy who wanted to Well, that little boy who wanted to be in there, that little boy be in there, that little boy be in there, that little boy who wanted to be seen as an who wanted to be seen as an who wanted to be seen as an American, finally made it.' American, finally made it.' American, finally made it.' Now he's in there. But the Now he's in there. But the Now he's in there. But the second thought was more from the second thought was more from the second thought was more from the Holy Spirit, in a good way, and Holy Spirit, in a good way, and Holy Spirit, in a good way, and so it was, and that's not you. At least so it was, and that's not you. At least so it was, and that's not you. At least not entirely you. Why are you running away from not entirely you. Why are you running away from not entirely you. Why are you running away from who I thought you were? Why don't they who I thought you were? Why don't they who I thought you were? Why don't they know your mother's story?

know your mother's story? know your mother's story? Why don't they know about your journey through all those Why don't they know about your journey through all those Why don't they know about your journey through all those countries and the dynamics that created within countries and the dynamics that created within countries and the dynamics that created within you? Hmm. How about we explore that you? Hmm. How about we explore that you? Hmm. How about we explore that a little? And that's what led me to a little? And that's what led me to a little? And that's what led me to develop the desire to bring develop the desire to bring develop the desire to bring the World Leadership Summit to Latin America. I the World Leadership Summit to Latin America. I the World Leadership Summit to Latin America. I hired my cousin to hired my cousin to hired my cousin to help me bring it to Latin America, and help me bring it to Latin America, and help me bring it to Latin America, and then I came across Compassion, and then I came across Compassion, and then I came across Compassion, and one way or another, Compassion one way or another, Compassion one way or another, Compassion became the most became the most became the most complete expression of that. Okay, complete expression of that. Okay, complete expression of that. Okay, thanks for sharing that. Well, you thanks for sharing that. Well, you thanks for sharing that. Well, you know, we're in a know, we're in a know, we're in a very interesting cultural moment as well, and I think it's very interesting cultural moment as well, and I think it's very interesting cultural moment as well, and I think it's a very timely message for many a very timely message for many a very timely message for many leaders. I miss the sensitivity leaders. I miss the sensitivity leaders. I miss the sensitivity and respect we used to have for each other a and respect we used to have for each other a and respect we used to have for each other a few years ago. I want you to have few years ago. I want you to have few years ago. I want you to have mentioned sports. Well, that was mentioned sports. Well, that was mentioned sports. Well, that was an understatement. I mean, I knew that an understatement. I mean, I knew that an understatement. I mean, I knew that because I've followed you for, I don't know, because I've followed you for, I don't know, because I've followed you for, I don't know, about 20 years, Jimmy, but, going back about 20 years, Jimmy, but, going back about 20 years, Jimmy, but, going back , you were a decathlete, I think that's what you , you were a decathlete, I think that's what you , you were a decathlete, I think that's what you call it. You competed in call it. You competed in call it. You competed in the 1988 Summer Olympics.

the 1988 Summer Olympics. Yes. Yes. Tell me more about that. Like what? Tell me more about that. Like what? Tell me more about that. Like what? Wow, that's incredible. Having one Wow, that's incredible. Having one Wow, that's incredible. Having one sport, but 10? So, what's sport, but 10? So, what's sport, but 10? So, what's in a decathlon? Well, I've seen the in a decathlon? Well, I've seen the in a decathlon? Well, I've seen the Olympic Games, but I can't Olympic Games, but I can't Olympic Games, but I can't tell you what they consist of; it's tell you what they consist of; it's tell you what they consist of; it's two days of competition, 10 events, two days of competition, 10 events, two days of competition, 10 events, as you mentioned. The first day consists of as you mentioned. The first day consists of as you mentioned. The first day consists of five events: 100m, long jump five events: 100m, long jump , shot put, high jump, , shot put, high jump, , shot put, high jump, 400m. You can rest for one night and 400m. You can rest for one night and 400m. You can rest for one night and then come back the next day, do then come back the next day, do then come back the next day, do 110m hurdles, discus, 110m hurdles, discus, 110m hurdles, discus, pole vault, javelin and then 1500m, almost pole vault, javelin and then 1500m, almost pole vault, javelin and then 1500m, almost a mile. a mile. Only 1500m to finish. Only 1500m to finish. Yes, okay. Yes, okay. Yes, okay. Just to top it all off. Just to top it all off. Just to top it all off. Featuring the world's best athletes Featuring the world's best athletes Featuring the world's best athletes practicing 10 sports. practicing 10 sports. practicing 10 sports. Yes. But it all started in 1972. Yes. But it all started in 1972. Yes. But it all started in 1972. It was the summer between third and It was the summer between third and It was the summer between third and fourth grade, we were in Nicaragua and fourth grade, we were in Nicaragua and fourth grade, we were in Nicaragua and we were watching the we were watching the we were watching the Munich Olympics. I was mesmerized. Wow Munich Olympics. I was mesmerized. Wow , he was glued to the TV. The idea of , he was glued to the TV. The idea of , he was glued to the TV. The idea of nations uniting in nations uniting in nations uniting in peaceful competition seemed peaceful competition seemed peaceful competition seemed precious to me. And then there was the whole drama of the precious to me. And then there was the whole drama of the precious to me. And then there was the whole drama of the Israeli athletes who were Israeli athletes who were Israeli athletes who were kidnapped and, well, you know, I think kidnapped and, well, you know, I think kidnapped and, well, you know, I think 11 of them, coaches and athletes 11 of them, coaches and athletes , lost their lives and all that. I would , lost their lives and all that. I would , lost their lives and all that. I would love to be part of the love to be part of the love to be part of the Olympic movement. I am a little boy. In Olympic movement. I am a little boy. In Olympic movement. I am a little boy. In what? Don't know. But I started what? Don't know. But I started what? Don't know. But I started organizing small competitions at the organizing small competitions at the organizing small competitions at the primary school during recess. Hey

primary school during recess. Hey , let's have a long jump competition , let's have a long jump competition , let's have a long jump competition . Or let's have a . Or let's have a . Or let's have a high jump competition. Here is a high jump competition. Here is a high jump competition. Here is a tree branch. We literally jumped tree branch. We literally jumped tree branch. We literally jumped over the tree branches. over the tree branches. over the tree branches. Without mats, just on the ground, Without mats, just on the ground, Without mats, just on the ground, on the grass. But by the time I was in on the grass. But by the time I was in on the grass. But by the time I was in sixth grade, I was already able to jump sixth grade, I was already able to jump sixth grade, I was already able to jump over my head. So there were over my head. So there were over my head. So there were some things along the way and then some things along the way and then some things along the way and then amazing coaches who told me, amazing coaches who told me, "Hey, you have a knack for everything "Hey, you have a knack for everything ." And I loved all the tests ." And I loved all the tests ." And I loved all the tests because I loved the movement, not because I loved the movement, not because I loved the movement, not one thing in particular. I loved one thing in particular. I loved one thing in particular. I loved running, jumping, throwing, and all that. And running, jumping, throwing, and all that. And running, jumping, throwing, and all that. And then there were some then there were some then there were some wonderful coaches, especially in Panama, wonderful coaches, especially in Panama, wonderful coaches, especially in Panama, who saw potential in me and started who saw potential in me and started who saw potential in me and started training me and teaching me how to pole vault training me and teaching me how to pole vault training me and teaching me how to pole vault and throw the javelin. They didn't and throw the javelin. They didn't and throw the javelin. They didn't even throw javelins at even throw javelins at even throw javelins at school because school because school because high school boys aren't given javelins. It wasn't a high school boys aren't given javelins. It wasn't a high school boys aren't given javelins. It wasn't a good idea. good idea. good idea. Yes. Yes. But this coach But this coach personally bought a javelin to personally bought a javelin to personally bought a javelin to teach me how to throw it. Because he thought, "I teach me how to throw it. Because he thought, "I think you could do it." And that think you could do it." And that think you could do it." And that led to another, and in my third year I led to another, and in my third year I led to another, and in my third year I was starting to get good grades and was starting to get good grades and was starting to get good grades and my father said to me, "Hey, we have to my father said to me, "Hey, we have to my father said to me, "Hey, we have to move to the United States and I think they'll take move to the United States and I think they'll take move to the United States and I think they'll take more notice of you there, more notice of you there, more notice of you there, maybe you'll get a scholarship." So that's what maybe you'll get a scholarship." So that's what maybe you'll get a scholarship." So that's what led me to move out at the end led me to move out at the end led me to move out at the end of my high school years and I had a of my high school years and I had a of my high school years and I had a good senior year and, uh, if you remember the good senior year and, uh, if you remember the good senior year and, uh, if you remember the whole Bruce Jenner thing in the...

whole Bruce Jenner thing in the... whole Bruce Jenner thing in the... Oh yeah, I remember. He was the Oh yeah, I remember. He was the Oh yeah, I remember. He was the decathlete. decathlete. decathlete. Decathlon, yes. Decathlon, yes. Decathlon, yes. Yes, in the decathlon. So, upon Yes, in the decathlon. So, upon Yes, in the decathlon. So, upon leaving high school, I had leaving high school, I had leaving high school, I had comparable scores on five of the 10 tests. comparable scores on five of the 10 tests. comparable scores on five of the 10 tests. So that's what led me to So that's what led me to So that's what led me to get a scholarship to SMU and competed get a scholarship to SMU and competed get a scholarship to SMU and competed for them and for me it was a for them and for me it was a for them and for me it was a really important part of my life growing really important part of my life growing really important part of my life growing up, the whole up, the whole up, the whole sporting aspect of the equation. And I always sporting aspect of the equation. And I always sporting aspect of the equation. And I always wanted to compete for the United States, and wanted to compete for the United States, and wanted to compete for the United States, and again, I wanted to be American, if you again, I wanted to be American, if you again, I wanted to be American, if you think about it. And I had a very think about it. And I had a very think about it. And I had a very serious injury in my senior year of college serious injury in my senior year of college serious injury in my senior year of college and I didn't realize it. Two years later, I and I didn't realize it. Two years later, I and I didn't realize it. Two years later, I suddenly received a call from the suddenly received a call from the suddenly received a call from the president of the Olympic Committee of El president of the Olympic Committee of El president of the Olympic Committee of El Salvador. I didn't even know it wouldn't even Salvador. I didn't even know it wouldn't even Salvador. I didn't even know it wouldn't even be on my radar. My father be on my radar. My father , who was still working in , who was still working in , who was still working in Latin America, sat next to him on Latin America, sat next to him on Latin America, sat next to him on a plane trip and on a flight, and came up a plane trip and on a flight, and came up a plane trip and on a flight, and came up and said, "Oh, yes, my son runs the and said, "Oh, yes, my son runs the and said, "Oh, yes, my son runs the decathlon and was born in El Salvador." And decathlon and was born in El Salvador." And decathlon and was born in El Salvador." And they said, "Wait. He has those marks and they said, "Wait. He has those marks and they said, "Wait. He has those marks and was born here? Why didn't he compete was born here? Why didn't he compete was born here? Why didn't he compete with us?" Then my father with us?" Then my father with us?" Then my father gave them my contact information and they gave them my contact information and they gave them my contact information and they invited me to represent them at the invited me to represent them at the invited me to represent them at the 1987 Pan American Games, where I 1987 Pan American Games, where I 1987 Pan American Games, where I finished fourth, and that opened the finished fourth, and that opened the finished fourth, and that opened the doors to the Olympic experience a doors to the Olympic experience a doors to the Olympic experience a year later in Seoul, South Korea.

year later in Seoul, South Korea. year later in Seoul, South Korea. It was a dream come true for me. It was a dream come true for me. It was a dream come true for me. 16 years of work and effort, and to walk out 16 years of work and effort, and to walk out 16 years of work and effort, and to walk out at the opening ceremony and be a at the opening ceremony and be a at the opening ceremony and be a part of it all was simply part of it all was simply part of it all was simply surreal for me. I ca surreal for me. I ca n't imagine it. I was going to ask you, what are some of your what are some of your what are some of your most lasting memories? I mean, we most lasting memories? I mean, we most lasting memories? I mean, we 've all seen hundreds of interviews with 've all seen hundreds of interviews with 've all seen hundreds of interviews with athletes at the Olympics. And you know, athletes at the Olympics. And you know, athletes at the Olympics. And you know, you're a kid, so you're still you're a kid, so you're still you're a kid, so you're still processing it. But do you really processing it. But do you really processing it. But do you really appreciate it at this stage of your life? appreciate it at this stage of your life? appreciate it at this stage of your life? That would be difficult for many... That would be difficult for many... how old were you? 23? 24? how old were you? 23? 24? 25? 25? 25? Yes, 25-year-olds would find it difficult to grasp Yes, 25-year-olds would find it difficult to grasp Yes, 25-year-olds would find it difficult to grasp the gravity or weight the gravity or weight the gravity or weight of the moment. It seems so, but of the moment. It seems so, but what were some what were some what were some lasting memories and what were some lasting memories and what were some lasting memories and what were some lessons from your Olympic lessons from your Olympic lessons from your Olympic and athletic training that helped you and athletic training that helped you and athletic training that helped you develop your leadership? develop your leadership? develop your leadership? Yes. And there are lessons to be learned. Wow, now that Yes. And there are lessons to be learned. Wow, now that Yes. And there are lessons to be learned. Wow, now that I look back I can see that even that I look back I can see that even that I look back I can see that even that helped me to do what I do today as helped me to do what I do today as helped me to do what I do today as CEO. But probably the CEO. But probably the CEO. But probably the most lasting memory for me was the most lasting memory for me was the most lasting memory for me was the high jump competition. He was the high jump competition. He was the high jump competition. He was the second shortest of the 42 athletes.

second shortest of the 42 athletes. second shortest of the 42 athletes. Well, I was 1.72 m tall, the average height of Well, I was 1.72 m tall, the average height of Well, I was 1.72 m tall, the average height of Olympic athletes was 1.85 m, so Olympic athletes was 1.85 m, so Olympic athletes was 1.85 m, so I'm one of the shortest. But I I'm one of the shortest. But I I'm one of the shortest. But I love the high jump. I already said love the high jump. I already said love the high jump. I already said that I jumped over my head in that I jumped over my head in that I jumped over my head in sixth grade. And finally, in the sixth grade. And finally, in the sixth grade. And finally, in the high jump competition, it was the high jump competition, it was the high jump competition, it was the turn of the world record holder, turn of the world record holder, turn of the world record holder, Daley Thompson, and me. We were the Daley Thompson, and me. We were the Daley Thompson, and me. We were the last two left in that last two left in that last two left in that competition, within that same competition, within that same competition, within that same group. And the interesting thing is that before group. And the interesting thing is that before group. And the interesting thing is that before the Olympic Games were held the Olympic Games were held , we trained in the city of Seoul, at , we trained in the city of Seoul, at , we trained in the city of Seoul, at different venues, before the different venues, before the different venues, before the competition. It just so happened competition. It just so happened that Daley that Daley Thompson and his UK team Thompson and his UK team Thompson and his UK team were training at the same time that day. You are were training at the same time that day. You are were training at the same time that day. You are assigned a time slot and a place assigned a time slot and a place assigned a time slot and a place to go to train. We were assigned to go to train. We were assigned to go to train. We were assigned the same time slot by chance. I the same time slot by chance. I the same time slot by chance. I know who he is. He didn't know who I am know who he is. He didn't know who I am know who he is. He didn't know who I am , I am nobody. And I felt , I am nobody. And I felt , I am nobody. And I felt very intimidated. I just sat very intimidated. I just sat very intimidated. I just sat to the side watching them train. to the side watching them train.

to the side watching them train. And Daley approached me, she knew I And Daley approached me, she knew I And Daley approached me, she knew I was one of the athletes, but I wasn't going was one of the athletes, but I wasn't going was one of the athletes, but I wasn't going to do anything. And he came up to me and said, to do anything. And he came up to me and said, "Hey, where are you from?" From El "Hey, where are you from?" From El "Hey, where are you from?" From El Salvador. "Why are you sitting down? Salvador. "Why are you sitting down? Salvador. "Why are you sitting down? You should be training." Well, you You should be training." Well, you You should be training." Well, you know, I just want you guys, know, I just want you guys, know, I just want you guys, and when you're done, I'll say, "No, no, and when you're done, I'll say, "No, no, and when you're done, I'll say, "No, no, no, join us." Here he is, no, join us." Here he is, no, join us." Here he is, the world record holder. You don't have to the world record holder. You don't have to the world record holder. You don't have to pay attention to an pay attention to an pay attention to an unknown child from El Salvador. He invites me to unknown child from El Salvador. He invites me to unknown child from El Salvador. He invites me to train with him. And that humanized him. He train with him. And that humanized him. He train with him. And that humanized him. He became a person, not the became a person, not the became a person, not the world record holder Daley world record holder Daley world record holder Daley Thompson who intimidates me so much. Thompson who intimidates me so much. Thompson who intimidates me so much. So, when the time came for So, when the time came for So, when the time came for the competition, I already knew him. Back then the competition, I already knew him. Back then the competition, I already knew him. Back then , it was just him and me. , it was just him and me. , it was just him and me. Oh, we became friends. We Oh, we became friends. We Oh, we became friends. We did it. And that's what happened. That's did it. And that's what happened. That's did it. And that's what happened. That's unique in the decathlon because in 2 unique in the decathlon because in 2 unique in the decathlon because in 2 days, you only have 15 minutes of days, you only have 15 minutes of days, you only have 15 minutes of real competition. 15 minutes in 2 days real competition. 15 minutes in 2 days . So, most of the time you're . So, most of the time you're . So, most of the time you're sitting, resting, and talking. sitting, resting, and talking. sitting, resting, and talking. And you become friends. You get to know the other And you become friends. You get to know the other And you become friends. You get to know the other athletes and you encourage each other because it does athletes and you encourage each other because it does athletes and you encourage each other because it does n't matter if you're the world record holder n't matter if you're the world record holder n't matter if you're the world record holder , these are some of the , these are some of the , these are some of the lessons we learned: nobody wins lessons we learned: nobody wins lessons we learned: nobody wins every event. Nobody wins every every event. Nobody wins every every event. Nobody wins every test. And in the high jump, you know test. And in the high jump, you know test. And in the high jump, you know , I went up to 13 meters above , I went up to 13 meters above , I went up to 13 meters above my head and he made his first my head and he made his first my head and he made his first attempt and missed, I missed, then he attempt and missed, I missed, then he attempt and missed, I missed, then he missed, and from the way he missed on missed, and from the way he missed on missed, and from the way he missed on his second attempt, I knew he was his second attempt, I knew he was his second attempt, I knew he was finished. He wasn't going to do his third finished. He wasn't going to do his third finished. He wasn't going to do his third test, his third attempt. But then test, his third attempt. But then test, his third attempt. But then I thought: if I don't get it this time, I thought: if I don't get it this time, I thought: if I don't get it this time, I'm finished too. And I never prayed

I'm finished too. And I never prayed I'm finished too. And I never prayed for victories. I just didn't believe for victories. I just didn't believe for victories. I just didn't believe God was there, you know, I never God was there, you know, I never God was there, you know, I never felt right asking for victory. But felt right asking for victory. But felt right asking for victory. But at that moment I said, "Sir, if at that moment I said, "Sir, if at that moment I said, "Sir, if I could make this jump, I don't know if it I could make this jump, I don't know if it I could make this jump, I don't know if it will be enough to win or whatever will be enough to win or whatever will be enough to win or whatever , but if I could make this jump, it , but if I could make this jump, it , but if I could make this jump, it would be enough for me." And then I would be enough for me." And then I would be enough for me." And then I did it. And then he tried and failed on did it. And then he tried and failed on did it. And then he tried and failed on his third attempt, so I won. And his third attempt, so I won. And his third attempt, so I won. And then he reappeared later, then he reappeared later, then he reappeared later, because we had met and he because we had met and he because we had met and he still didn't remember my name, but still didn't remember my name, but still didn't remember my name, but he said, "Good job, Bill Salvador." " he said, "Good job, Bill Salvador." " Bill Salvador. Well, that was a Bill Salvador. Well, that was a moment I'll treasure. If I ever moment I'll treasure. If I ever moment I'll treasure. If I ever see him again, I'll thank him for being see him again, I'll thank him for being see him again, I'll thank him for being kind to someone who didn't kind to someone who didn't kind to someone who didn't need to be kind to. You know what? need to be kind to. You know what? need to be kind to. You know what? The best leaders—and you know, maybe The best leaders—and you know, maybe The best leaders—and you know, maybe God willing we'll get to 1,000 God willing we'll get to 1,000 God willing we'll get to 1,000 interviews on this show in the interviews on this show in the interviews on this show in the next year or two—but the best next year or two—but the best next year or two—but the best leaders I know, the most leaders I know, the most leaders I know, the most important leaders I know, are important leaders I know, are important leaders I know, are exactly like that. They may have the exactly like that. They may have the exactly like that. They may have the biggest church, the biggest platform biggest church, the biggest platform biggest church, the biggest platform . You know, I remember my time, . You know, I remember my time, . You know, I remember my time, especially the last decade, when I especially the last decade, when I especially the last decade, when I went from being a local pastor to trying to went from being a local pastor to trying to went from being a local pastor to trying to help leaders; and the number of help leaders; and the number of help leaders; and the number of people who have much, people who have much, people who have much, much bigger platforms, greater influence, much bigger platforms, greater influence, much bigger platforms, greater influence, better knowledge than I did, who have better knowledge than I did, who have better knowledge than I did, who have been kind to me, who have been kind to me, who have been kind to me, who have helped me, and who have done me favors.

helped me, and who have done me favors. helped me, and who have done me favors. I mean, just look, scroll I mean, just look, scroll I mean, just look, scroll through the guest list here, and through the guest list here, and through the guest list here, and you'll see a lot of those names. It's you'll see a lot of those names. It's you'll see a lot of those names. It's really a great principle of really a great principle of really a great principle of leadership, and one that I think is still leadership, and one that I think is still leadership, and one that I think is still overlooked, but the great, the overlooked, but the great, the overlooked, but the great, the greatest leaders, and often greatest leaders, and often greatest leaders, and often the people who end up being the people who end up being the people who end up being trusted the most, tend to be like that." They say trusted the most, tend to be like that." They say trusted the most, tend to be like that." They say don't meet your heroes, but I don't meet your heroes, but I don't meet your heroes, but I 've met a lot of heroes, and some of 've met a lot of heroes, and some of 've met a lot of heroes, and some of them, especially in the them, especially in the them, especially in the church world and in the business world. church world and in the business world. church world and in the business world. We have a lot of businesspeople here who We have a lot of businesspeople here who We have a lot of businesspeople here who are very kind. Isn't that are very kind. Isn't that amazing? It makes a difference. I amazing? It makes a difference. I amazing? It makes a difference. I mean, mean, what's your experience, Jimmy? what's your experience, Jimmy? what's your experience, Jimmy? Almost 40 years later, I tell you this Almost 40 years later, I tell you this Almost 40 years later, I tell you this as my most significant moment as my most significant moment as my most significant moment where kindness mattered to me. where kindness mattered to me. where kindness mattered to me. Yes. Yes. Yes. There's a story I heard about a There's a story I heard about a There's a story I heard about a guy. guy. Just on the lesson side, it was a Just on the lesson side, it was a wonderful victory, but then—and wonderful victory, but then—and wonderful victory, but then—and this is a lesson learned—I can't this is a lesson learned—I can't this is a lesson learned—I can't if I had sat there and if I had sat there and if I had sat there and celebrated that celebrated that celebrated that victory too much. Oh, I beat the victory too much. Oh, I beat the victory too much. Oh, I beat the world record holder in the high jump. world record holder in the high jump. world record holder in the high jump. Wow, this is incredible. And I ended up, you Wow, this is incredible. And I ended up, you Wow, this is incredible. And I ended up, you know, beating him in a couple of know, beating him in a couple of know, beating him in a couple of other events as well. But if I celebrate other events as well. But if I celebrate other events as well. But if I celebrate too much, then I can't make the too much, then I can't make the too much, then I can't make the shift and move on to the next event.

shift and move on to the next event. shift and move on to the next event. Now I'm not ready for the next Now I'm not ready for the next Now I'm not ready for the next event. event. event. So you can't celebrate So you can't celebrate So you can't celebrate that event too much. To celebrate it, move that event too much. To celebrate it, move that event too much. To celebrate it, move on. But you have to move on. But you have to move on. But you have to move on. But there's the on. But there's the on. But there's the downside, too. There are some failures, there are downside, too. There are some failures, there are downside, too. There are some failures, there are some Failures happen. There are some things that some Failures happen. There are some things that some Failures happen. There are some things that don't go as planned, and you can't don't go as planned, and you can't don't go as planned, and you can't punish yourself for that failure because you have punish yourself for that failure because you have punish yourself for that failure because you have the next event in 45 minutes. But the next event in 45 minutes. But how true is that in life and how true is that in life and how true is that in life and leadership? I can't punish myself for leadership? I can't punish myself for leadership? I can't punish myself for the mistakes or failures I make and the mistakes or failures I make and the mistakes or failures I make and just wallow in shame and stay in just wallow in shame and stay in just wallow in shame and stay in that rut. That prevents me from allowing that rut. That prevents me from allowing that rut. That prevents me from allowing grace, healing, grace, healing, grace, healing, learning, and growth to enter, and then learning, and growth to enter, and then learning, and growth to enter, and then moving on to the next challenge, or from moving on to the next challenge, or from moving on to the next challenge, or from over-celebrating the victory, thinking you're over-celebrating the victory, thinking you're over-celebrating the victory, thinking you're better than you are. better than you are. better than you are. Sure. Maybe I'm the world champion now Sure. Maybe I'm the world champion now Sure. Maybe I'm the world champion now . Yes, yes. . Yes, yes. . Yes, yes. The decathlon is very similar to that The decathlon is very similar to that The decathlon is very similar to that because, again, everyone because, again, everyone because, again, everyone feels humbled. Here's a feels humbled. Here's a feels humbled. Here's a world record holder, and this kid from El world record holder, and this kid from El world record holder, and this kid from El Salvador beat him three out of ten times.

Salvador beat him three out of ten times. Salvador beat him three out of ten times. So, it's something that makes you feel So, it's something that makes you feel So, it's something that makes you feel very humble, and life is something that makes you very humble, and life is something that makes you very humble, and life is something that makes you feel very humble. Leadership feel very humble. Leadership feel very humble. Leadership is something that makes you feel very humble, is something that makes you feel very humble, is something that makes you feel very humble, but what attracted me to the decathlon but what attracted me to the decathlon but what attracted me to the decathlon was that I loved all the events was that I loved all the events was that I loved all the events and their variety. I was a generalist. and their variety. I was a generalist. and their variety. I was a generalist. Yes. Yes. That's what I have in Leadership. That's what I have in Leadership. Leadership is a generalist role. I'm not Leadership is a generalist role. I'm not Leadership is a generalist role. I'm not an expert in any of these things, and an expert in any of these things, and an expert in any of these things, and this year I'm celebrating my 33rd year this year I'm celebrating my 33rd year this year I'm celebrating my 33rd year as CEO. And, man, I don't even as CEO. And, man, I don't even as CEO. And, man, I don't even know adult life beyond know adult life beyond know adult life beyond every three or four months that I'm preparing for, every three or four months that I'm preparing for, every three or four months that I'm preparing for, conducting, or recovering from a conducting, or recovering from a conducting, or recovering from a board meeting. I don't know board meeting. I don't know board meeting. I don't know what life I'm what life I'm what life I'm recovering from. recovering from. Yes. This episode is brought to you by Gloo. So , I want to ask you something. What would , I want to ask you something. What would , I want to ask you something. What would change for your ministry if change for your ministry if change for your ministry if you could focus solely on the you could focus solely on the you could focus solely on the mission? I mean, without dealing with mission? I mean, without dealing with mission? I mean, without dealing with the technology, without guessing whether your the technology, without guessing whether your the technology, without guessing whether your marketing is actually working. marketing is actually working. marketing is actually working. Well, I have Brian Brown here, who Well, I have Brian Brown here, who Well, I have Brian Brown here, who leads the internal Gloo team leads the internal Gloo team leads the internal Gloo team focused on helping ministries focused on helping ministries focused on helping ministries expand their reach. Brian, explain expand their reach. Brian, explain expand their reach. Brian, explain the short version to people. What is the short version to people. What is the short version to people. What is Gloo? Everyone asks me that Gloo? Everyone asks me that Gloo? Everyone asks me that question.

question. question. Yes, thank you, Carey. Simply put, Yes, thank you, Carey. Simply put, Yes, thank you, Carey. Simply put, Gloo is the technology platform for Gloo is the technology platform for Gloo is the technology platform for the faith and the faith and the faith and flourishing ecosystem. Gloo exists to serve flourishing ecosystem. Gloo exists to serve flourishing ecosystem. Gloo exists to serve people who serve others, like people who serve others, like people who serve others, like your listeners. We do the following very well: Two your listeners. We do the following very well: Two your listeners. We do the following very well: Two things. We handle the technology and things. We handle the technology and things. We handle the technology and we help people connect. we help people connect. we help people connect. On the technology side, we bring On the technology side, we bring On the technology side, we bring engineering talent, engineering talent, engineering talent, scalable infrastructure, and extensive scalable infrastructure, and extensive scalable infrastructure, and extensive technology expertise to ministry and technology expertise to ministry and technology expertise to ministry and nonprofits so you do nonprofits so you do nonprofits so you do n't have to spend sleepless nights trying to n't have to spend sleepless nights trying to n't have to spend sleepless nights trying to keep all your systems keep all your systems keep all your systems running through sheer willpower running through sheer willpower running through sheer willpower . And on the outreach side, we . And on the outreach side, we . And on the outreach side, we help you connect with donors, help you connect with donors, help you connect with donors, supporters, and the people you're supporters, and the people you're supporters, and the people you're actually trying to serve, which actually trying to serve, which actually trying to serve, which translates to better engagement, translates to better engagement, translates to better engagement, smarter distribution, and smarter distribution, and smarter distribution, and a real marketing strategy, a real marketing strategy, a real marketing strategy, instead of just throwing things at instead of just throwing things at instead of just throwing things at a wall. And increasingly, we're using a wall. And increasingly, we're using a wall. And increasingly, we're using AI to make all of that AI to make all of that AI to make all of that faster, more accurate, and better. But faster, more accurate, and better. But faster, more accurate, and better. But our bottom line is this: you our bottom line is this: you our bottom line is this: you stay focused on the front lines, stay focused on the front lines, stay focused on the front lines, and we take care of everything and we take care of everything and we take care of everything behind the scenes. It sounds like behind the scenes. It sounds like behind the scenes. It sounds like Glo is building the Glo is building the Glo is building the infrastructure and the staff, infrastructure and the staff, infrastructure and the staff, and most churches are saying, " and most churches are saying, " and most churches are saying, " Yeah, we can't do all that because we do Yeah, we can't do all that because we do Yeah, we can't do all that because we do n't have the staff." So, Brian, n't have the staff." So, Brian, n't have the staff." So, Brian, thanks for the explanation. I thanks for the explanation. I thanks for the explanation. I appreciate it. So, if you're a appreciate it. So, if you're a appreciate it. So, if you're a church or a nonprofit organization...

church or a nonprofit organization... church or a nonprofit organization... profit, and I personally profit, and I personally profit, and I personally have also partnered with Gloo, our have also partnered with Gloo, our have also partnered with Gloo, our company does, and you're tired of company does, and you're tired of company does, and you're tired of juggling, go to gloo.com/grow. juggling, go to gloo.com/grow. juggling, go to gloo.com/grow. I want to explain it to you. It's I want to explain it to you. It's I want to explain it to you. It's gloo.com/grow. Athletics, extremely gloo.com/grow. Athletics, extremely gloo.com/grow. Athletics, extremely good. I mean, you were competing at the good. I mean, you were competing at the good. I mean, you were competing at the highest level in the world. But highest level in the world. But highest level in the world. But you also ended up at Harvard. I mean, you also ended up at Harvard. I mean, you also ended up at Harvard. I mean, academically strong, athletically academically strong, athletically academically strong, athletically strong, and you got an MBA from Harvard strong, and you got an MBA from Harvard ? ? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So how did you end up there Yes. So how did you end up there ? And that led directly to your ? And that led directly to your ? And that led directly to your work at Willow, which many of work at Willow, which many of work at Willow, which many of us... That's where many of us... That's where many of us... That's where many of us picked up your story, us picked up your story, us picked up your story, those of us with a certain those of us with a certain those of us with a certain background in leadership background in leadership background in leadership picked it up. That's your story. picked it up. That's your story. picked it up. That's your story. So, explain the years at Harvard. So, explain the years at Harvard. So, explain the years at Harvard. Why did you go? What did you learn? And Why did you go? What did you learn? And Why did you go? What did you learn? And then did you do a then did you do a then did you do a really pivotal case study? really pivotal case study? really pivotal case study? Yes, actually, I have to say that Yes, actually, I have to say that Yes, actually, I have to say that really came from my father. My father really came from my father. My father really came from my father. My father was a contractor, kind of a was a contractor, kind of a was a contractor, kind of a hard-hitting school person, get it done, you hard-hitting school person, get it done, you hard-hitting school person, get it done, you know, build that thing, lead know, build that thing, lead know, build that thing, lead teams. So, I really valued teams. So, I really valued teams. So, I really valued life experience, hands-on training life experience, hands-on training life experience, hands-on training , being the best teacher versus , being the best teacher versus , being the best teacher versus academics or theory and that kind academics or theory and that kind academics or theory and that kind of thing. So, my dad brought that of thing. So, my dad brought that of thing. So, my dad brought that right into his head. And he said right into his head. And he said right into his head. And he said he could see that I would be an engineer he could see that I would be an engineer he could see that I would be an engineer , and again, I had absolutely no doubt in my , and again, I had absolutely no doubt in my , and again, I had absolutely no doubt in my mind that I would end up being an mind that I would end up being an mind that I would end up being an engineer during my education. I never engineer during my education. I never engineer during my education. I never considered anything else. I knew considered anything else. I knew considered anything else. I knew exactly what I was going to exactly what I was going to exactly what I was going to major in: civil and major in: civil and major in: civil and mechanical engineering at SMU. And so, because of

mechanical engineering at SMU. And so, because of mechanical engineering at SMU. And so, because of my dad's influence, my gift and my my dad's influence, my gift and my my dad's influence, my gift and my inclination toward that path, I inclination toward that path, I inclination toward that path, I loved fixing and making things loved fixing and making things loved fixing and making things even when I was little. I did that even when I was little. I did that even when I was little. I did that all the time. Fixing things, making all the time. Fixing things, making all the time. Fixing things, making things, uh, I just loved it, and things, uh, I just loved it, and things, uh, I just loved it, and I loved going to my dad's I loved going to my dad's I loved going to my dad's projects. My mom wasn't too keen on it projects. My mom wasn't too keen on it projects. My mom wasn't too keen on it because it was sometimes a little because it was sometimes a little because it was sometimes a little dangerous, but I loved going to dangerous, but I loved going to dangerous, but I loved going to those projects and seeing what he was doing. those projects and seeing what he was doing. those projects and seeing what he was doing. So, the practical side of So, the practical side of So, the practical side of engineering is that engineering goes in engineering is that engineering goes in engineering is that engineering goes in one of two directions. You can go the one of two directions. You can go the one of two directions. You can go the technical route of the science of technical route of the science of technical route of the science of things that you have to build, make, and things that you have to build, make, and things that you have to build, make, and assemble, or you can go the assemble, or you can go the assemble, or you can go the leadership route. So, you either follow the leadership route. So, you either follow the leadership route. So, you either follow the path of science or the path of path of science or the path of path of science or the path of leadership. Head of Engineering on one leadership. Head of Engineering on one leadership. Head of Engineering on one hand, CEO on the other. My father was a hand, CEO on the other. My father was a hand, CEO on the other. My father was a leader. And he saw it in me from the beginning leader. And he saw it in me from the beginning , he said, "Jimmy, I think you , he said, "Jimmy, I think you , he said, "Jimmy, I think you 're a leader too." I think you have those 're a leader too." I think you have those 're a leader too." I think you have those kinds of qualities. I think you're going to end up going down kinds of qualities. I think you're going to end up going down kinds of qualities. I think you're going to end up going down the the the management side, the CEO side, not the management side, the CEO side, not the management side, the CEO side, not the science side. Both are great. It's just science side. Both are great. It's just science side. Both are great. It's just that I think you're going to go down that that I think you're going to go down that that I think you're going to go down that path. Well, I got my path. Well, I got my path. Well, I got my engineering degree and he said, "I think you'd do engineering degree and he said, "I think you'd do engineering degree and he said, "I think you'd do well with a well with a well with a business degree to fill in business degree to fill in business degree to fill in the generalist aspect of leadership again, which is what the generalist aspect of leadership again, which is what the generalist aspect of leadership again, which is what he meant." "I think it would he meant." "I think it would he meant." "I think it would really do you good." And then, really do you good." And then, really do you good." And then, uh, I was very attracted to uh, I was very attracted to uh, I was very attracted to Harvard's case study method.

Harvard's case study method. So that brings us back to the So that brings us back to the cases, to the practical, to real life, cases, to the practical, to real life, cases, to the practical, to real life, not to accounting theory. not to accounting theory. not to accounting theory. Here we have a leader who messed up Here we have a leader who messed up Here we have a leader who messed up accounting, and what do you learn from accounting, and what do you learn from accounting, and what do you learn from that? Well, you know, I was very that? Well, you know, I was very that? Well, you know, I was very drawn to it, you know, again through drawn to it, you know, again through drawn to it, you know, again through my father's research. I only my father's research. I only my father's research. I only applied to one school. I did applied to one school. I did applied to one school. I did n't apply to any n't apply to any n't apply to any other schools because I was very attracted to the other schools because I was very attracted to the other schools because I was very attracted to the practical nature of the practical nature of the practical nature of the case study method and, you know, Harvard; case study method and, you know, Harvard; case study method and, you know, Harvard; Everyone seemed to think it was Everyone seemed to think it was Everyone seemed to think it was a great school, so why a great school, so why a great school, so why not? So I only not? So I only not? So I only applied to one school, encouraged by my applied to one school, encouraged by my applied to one school, encouraged by my father, and I didn't really think I would get in father, and I didn't really think I would get in father, and I didn't really think I would get in . Well, then I did it, and my . Well, then I did it, and my . Well, then I did it, and my life took another turn, uh, right after life took another turn, uh, right after life took another turn, uh, right after the Olympics. the Olympics. the Olympics. Hm. You did a case study. I guess you Hm. You did a case study. I guess you Hm. You did a case study. I guess you had to do a big project had to do a big project had to do a big project and tell everyone who didn't know and tell everyone who didn't know and tell everyone who didn't know what the what the what the case study was about. Okay, case study was about. Okay, case study was about. Okay, in my two years at Harvard we were in my two years at Harvard we were in my two years at Harvard we were assigned an article in the first year assigned an article in the first year assigned an article in the first year that was written by Peter Drucker, and Peter that was written by Peter Drucker, and Peter that was written by Peter Drucker, and Peter Drucker is revered in the Drucker is revered in the Drucker is revered in the business world as the father of business world as the father of business world as the father of modern management, Peter Drucker. So she modern management, Peter Drucker. So she modern management, Peter Drucker. So she wrote an article titled What wrote an article titled What wrote an article titled What Businesses Could Learn From Businesses Could Learn From Businesses Could Learn From Nonprofit Organizations, Nonprofit Organizations, Nonprofit Organizations, and highlighted the Girl Scouts, the and highlighted the Girl Scouts, the and highlighted the Girl Scouts, the Red Cross, and Willow Creek. Well, it just so happened that I would Red Cross, and Willow Creek. Well, it just so happened that I would Red Cross, and Willow Creek. Well, it just so happened that I would back down a little back down a little . While I was in Seoul, the pastor of . While I was in Seoul, the pastor of . While I was in Seoul, the pastor of the world's largest church at the

the world's largest church at the the world's largest church at the time, Paul Yonggi Cho, held a time, Paul Yonggi Cho, held a time, Paul Yonggi Cho, held a prayer meeting at the prayer meeting at the prayer meeting at the Olympic Village. And I, again, am 1.72 meters tall and Olympic Village. And I, again, am 1.72 meters tall and Olympic Village. And I, again, am 1.72 meters tall and weigh 72 kg, I need all the help I weigh 72 kg, I need all the help I weigh 72 kg, I need all the help I can get. I want to go to the can get. I want to go to the can get. I want to go to the prayer meeting. So he prayed for prayer meeting. So he prayed for ... We were only about 100 athletes. He prayed ... We were only about 100 athletes. He prayed ... We were only about 100 athletes. He prayed for us and then invited us to his for us and then invited us to his for us and then invited us to his church. We went to his church and then he church. We went to his church and then he church. We went to his church and then he invited us to go to the seminary. In fact invited us to go to the seminary. In fact , I was the only athlete who went, my , I was the only athlete who went, my , I was the only athlete who went, my wife and I. We were invited to a wife and I. We were invited to a wife and I. We were invited to a seminar attended by about twelve seminar attended by about twelve seminar attended by about twelve people who told the story of the people who told the story of the people who told the story of the revival and Jesus movement revival and Jesus movement revival and Jesus movement in Korea before the war, which in Korea before the war, which in Korea before the war, which began in North Korea in the began in North Korea in the began in North Korea in the early 20th century and then, early 20th century and then, early 20th century and then, during the war, reached during the war, reached during the war, reached South Korea and the church revolution in South Korea and the church revolution in South Korea and the church revolution in South Korea. At the height of South Korea. At the height of South Korea. At the height of that revival, more people were that revival, more people were that revival, more people were becoming Christians than were being becoming Christians than were being becoming Christians than were being born in hospitals. It's born in hospitals. It's born in hospitals. It's incredible. It's incredible. And I remember incredible. It's incredible. And I remember incredible. It's incredible. And I remember that at that moment I was writing with such that at that moment I was writing with such that at that moment I was writing with such intensity that my intensity that my intensity that my hand was cramping because I just hand was cramping because I just hand was cramping because I just wanted to capture everything he was saying wanted to capture everything he was saying . And that's when I felt this calling . And that's when I felt this calling . I want to help equip and serve the . I want to help equip and serve the . I want to help equip and serve the church to see how movements like church to see how movements like church to see how movements like this change lives, cities, families, this change lives, cities, families, this change lives, cities, families, and entire countries. Here. It was then that I and entire countries. Here. It was then that I and entire countries. Here. It was then that I received my calling to dedicate received my calling to dedicate received my calling to dedicate my life to the service of the church.

my life to the service of the church. my life to the service of the church. I thought I would do it as a volunteer and I thought I would do it as a volunteer and I thought I would do it as a volunteer and get an engineering degree get an engineering degree get an engineering degree because that's what my father did. because that's what my father did. because that's what my father did. Then I returned from the Olympics. My Then I returned from the Olympics. My Then I returned from the Olympics. My pastor invited me to a conference at pastor invited me to a conference at pastor invited me to a conference at a place called Willow Creek. I was a a place called Willow Creek. I was a a place called Willow Creek. I was a volunteer youth pastor and volunteer youth pastor and volunteer youth pastor and also an engineer. So I went to that also an engineer. So I went to that also an engineer. So I went to that conference at Willow Creek in February conference at Willow Creek in February conference at Willow Creek in February 1989. It felt like -26 degrees, 1989. It felt like -26 degrees, 1989. It felt like -26 degrees, and there were thousands of and there were thousands of and there were thousands of people going to worship on a people going to worship on a people going to worship on a very inconvenient Wednesday night only to very inconvenient Wednesday night only to very inconvenient Wednesday night only to get up early to catch the train, get up early to catch the train, get up early to catch the train, go downtown, go to work, and leave go downtown, go to work, and leave go downtown, go to work, and leave room on the weekend for a room on the weekend for a room on the weekend for a more evangelistic service to which more evangelistic service to which more evangelistic service to which you can invite your friends. And I saw the you can invite your friends. And I saw the you can invite your friends. And I saw the same commitment, the same spirit same commitment, the same spirit same commitment, the same spirit that I saw in Seoul, I saw it here in the United States that I saw in Seoul, I saw it here in the United States that I saw in Seoul, I saw it here in the United States contextualized in this culture, contextualized in this culture, contextualized in this culture, and that also moved me. I want to be and that also moved me. I want to be and that also moved me. I want to be part of a movement like that.

part of a movement like that. part of a movement like that. So, our pastor brought some So, our pastor brought some So, our pastor brought some of those changes home, and made all of those changes home, and made all of those changes home, and made all sorts of mistakes while implementing the sorts of mistakes while implementing the sorts of mistakes while implementing the change. He almost lost his job. It wasn't change. He almost lost his job. It wasn't change. He almost lost his job. It wasn't good. We even did a... Do you remember good. We even did a... Do you remember good. We even did a... Do you remember what a search service or what a search service or what a search service or an evangelistic service was? an evangelistic service was? an evangelistic service was? I joined when that was at its I joined when that was at its I joined when that was at its peak. peak. Well, we did it, you'll appreciate it, Well, we did it, you'll appreciate it, we did a secret service and didn't we did a secret service and didn't we did a secret service and didn't tell anyone what was coming. tell anyone what was coming. Change is difficult for us. Change is difficult for us. Church, Alvin. It wasn't good. Then, Church, Alvin. It wasn't good. Then, Church, Alvin. It wasn't good. Then, the week the vision died, the week the vision died, the week the vision died, when the powers that be among the when the powers that be among the when the powers that be among the elders of that church said, "Hey, we're elders of that church said, "Hey, we're elders of that church said, "Hey, we're not going in that direction. We have to not going in that direction. We have to not going in that direction. We have to stay who we are." And all stay who we are." And all stay who we are." And all that ended. I was so discouraged. that ended. I was so discouraged. that ended. I was so discouraged. The following week I received my The following week I received my The following week I received my acceptance letter from Harvard. Furthermore, here acceptance letter from Harvard. Furthermore, here acceptance letter from Harvard. Furthermore, here the doors were closed, here there is an the doors were closed, here there is an the doors were closed, here there is an open door, I went to Harvard and now open door, I went to Harvard and now open door, I went to Harvard and now I am reading an article by Peter I am reading an article by Peter I am reading an article by Peter Drucker talking about Willow Creek. Drucker talking about Willow Creek. Drucker talking about Willow Creek. Are you kidding me? So Are you kidding me? So Are you kidding me? So I shared that with a friend who I shared that with a friend who I shared that with a friend who shared it with a teacher he didn't shared it with a teacher he didn't shared it with a teacher he didn't know. He calls me into his office and know. He calls me into his office and know. He calls me into his office and says, "Jimmy, why does Peter says, "Jimmy, why does Peter says, "Jimmy, why does Peter Drucker think businesses could Drucker think businesses could Drucker think businesses could learn from Willow Creek, let alone learn from Willow Creek, let alone learn from Willow Creek, let alone any church I know of?

any church I know of? any church I know of? Yes, yes, yes." Yes, yes, yes." Yes, yes, yes." So I give him my best pitch and he So I give him my best pitch and he So I give him my best pitch and he says, "Wow, this is incredible." I says, "Wow, this is incredible." I says, "Wow, this is incredible." I had no idea. What do you think we had no idea. What do you think we had no idea. What do you think we should do about this? "And I think should do about this? "And I think should do about this? "And I think God planted this idea in my God planted this idea in my God planted this idea in my mind and said, 'Hey, you talk about 800 mind and said, 'Hey, you talk about 800 mind and said, 'Hey, you talk about 800 case studies here at Harvard, in case studies here at Harvard, in case studies here at Harvard, in different environments to learn the different environments to learn the different environments to learn the same principles.'" Why don't you do same principles.'" Why don't you do same principles.'" Why don't you do a case study about a church? It's a case study about a church? It's a case study about a church? It's a very different environment for learning a very different environment for learning a very different environment for learning the same principles you know the same principles you know the same principles you know exist." And he says, "That's a great exist." And he says, "That's a great exist." And he says, "That's a great idea." Well, you'll never get it. The idea." Well, you'll never get it. The idea." Well, you'll never get it. The religious school is on the other side religious school is on the other side religious school is on the other side of the river. This is the of the river. This is the of the river. This is the business school. But this is what we will do. business school. But this is what we will do. business school. But this is what we will do. I will create a class. He will have a I will create a class. He will have a I will create a class. He will have a student. You. And you and I are going to student. You. And you and I are going to student. You. And you and I are going to study the church industry, study the church industry, study the church industry, write the teacher's note, write write the teacher's note, write write the teacher's note, write the case study, and once it's the case study, and once it's the case study, and once it's an actual product, I think I could an actual product, I think I could an actual product, I think I could surpass it. "And that's exactly what surpass it. "And that's exactly what surpass it. "And that's exactly what happened. It became a happened. It became a happened. It became a required case study at Willow Creek, and required case study at Willow Creek, and required case study at Willow Creek, and now it's one of the now it's one of the now it's one of the optional cases at—I'm sorry, it optional cases at—I'm sorry, it optional cases at—I'm sorry, it became a became a became a required case study at Harvard, and now it's one required case study at Harvard, and now it's one required case study at Harvard, and now it's one of the optional cases that are of the optional cases that are of the optional cases that are still in still in still in Harvard's case library. That's how I met Harvard's case library. That's how I met Harvard's case library. That's how I met the leaders at Willow Creek. So the leaders at Willow Creek. So the leaders at Willow Creek. So the the the leaders know—I mean the GLS—we're leaders know—I mean the GLS—we're leaders know—I mean the GLS—we're recording this in August, just recording this in August, just recording this in August, just finished. I think I read 400,000 finished. I think I read 400,000 finished. I think I read 400,000 leaders this year. It was crazy. That leaders this year. It was crazy. That leaders this year. It was crazy. That never would have happened if it weren't for never would have happened if it weren't for never would have happened if it weren't for this, or it wouldn't have happened the same this, or it wouldn't have happened the same this, or it wouldn't have happened the same way. Let's put it that way.

way. Let's put it that way. way. Let's put it that way. That was inspirational in a That was inspirational in a That was inspirational in a different way. different way. different way. But that...because that case study But that...because that case study But that...because that case study got the attention of the leaders at got the attention of the leaders at got the attention of the leaders at Willow. They found out. Harvard did a Willow. They found out. Harvard did a Willow. They found out. Harvard did a case study on us. Is case study on us. Is case study on us. Is that the correct version of the story that the correct version of the story , Jimmy? , Jimmy? , Jimmy? Yes, that's the version of the story. It Yes, that's the version of the story. It Yes, that's the version of the story. It sent me to Willow. I interviewed Bill sent me to Willow. I interviewed Bill sent me to Willow. I interviewed Bill Hybels and other staff members, Hybels and other staff members, Hybels and other staff members, Lee Strobel, Nancy Beach, Don Cousins. Lee Strobel, Nancy Beach, Don Cousins. I interviewed the whole team there, I interviewed the whole team there, then I wrote the case study, I then I wrote the case study, I then I wrote the case study, I graduated in '91, and then I took my graduated in '91, and then I took my graduated in '91, and then I took my church, which I attended after church, which I attended after church, which I attended after graduation, to a conference. And it was in graduation, to a conference. And it was in graduation, to a conference. And it was in a meeting, a private meeting with a meeting, a private meeting with a meeting, a private meeting with Bill, when he said, "I used to work for the Bill, when he said, "I used to work for the Bill, when he said, "I used to work for the Amoco oil company." He said, Amoco oil company." He said, "Oil, huh? Why don't you think "Oil, huh? Why don't you think "Oil, huh? Why don't you think about doing something really meaningful about doing something really meaningful about doing something really meaningful with your life?" We are about to with your life?" We are about to with your life?" We are about to begin a church equipment ministry begin a church equipment ministry begin a church equipment ministry . "And I think, you know, . "And I think, you know, . "And I think, you know, that you could help us get this that you could help us get this that you could help us get this going. So we founded the going. So we founded the going. So we founded the Willow Creek Association in 1992, Willow Creek Association in 1992, Willow Creek Association in 1992, moved to Chicago, and were there for 21 moved to Chicago, and were there for 21 moved to Chicago, and were there for 21 years before coming to Compassion.

years before coming to Compassion. But it was about how to help and But it was about how to help and serve a group of churches and help them serve a group of churches and help them serve a group of churches and help them thrive, help them thrive, help them thrive, help them realize, as we would say, realize, as we would say, realize, as we would say, their full redemptive potential, whatever that their full redemptive potential, whatever that their full redemptive potential, whatever that means to them. That was means to them. That was means to them. That was the vision for what started in 1992. And out of that the vision for what started in 1992. And out of that the vision for what started in 1992. And out of that came the summit in 1995. It came the summit in 1995. It came the summit in 1995. It was a very interesting time. I was a very interesting time. I was a very interesting time. I mean, I joined. I was in the middle mean, I joined. I was in the middle mean, I joined. I was in the middle of seminary in 1995, but I started in of seminary in 1995, but I started in of seminary in 1995, but I started in the three small churches that would go on to the three small churches that would go on to become Connexus. And the part that become Connexus. And the part that I found really interesting is, I found really interesting is, I found really interesting is, and I think this is important for and I think this is important for and I think this is important for young leaders, we had Todd young leaders, we had Todd young leaders, we had Todd Wilson. I don't know if you've read his book Wilson. I don't know if you've read his book Wilson. I don't know if you've read his book on the history of the on the history of the on the history of the church growth movement. It's church growth movement. It's church growth movement. It's fascinating. And I had a lot of fascinating. And I had a lot of fascinating. And I had a lot of young leaders message me and..." young leaders message me and..." young leaders message me and..." They said, "This is the last straw." I didn't They said, "This is the last straw." I didn't They said, "This is the last straw." I didn't know "." And you know, I remember that these know "." And you know, I remember that these know "." And you know, I remember that these churches are 10 minutes away from where churches are 10 minutes away from where churches are 10 minutes away from where I am right now in my studio. I haven't I am right now in my studio. I haven't I am right now in my studio. I haven't moved in 31 years. So, you know moved in 31 years. So, you know moved in 31 years. So, you know , we did the opposite of what , we did the opposite of what , we did the opposite of what you did in your childhood. But, for you did in your childhood. But, for you did in your childhood. But, for example, the Internet was example, the Internet was example, the Internet was dial-up. The churches were dial-up. The churches were dial-up. The churches were bankrupt. We had just begun to bankrupt. We had just begun to bankrupt. We had just begun to grow, and any news you could grow, and any news you could grow, and any news you could get about a get about a get about a growing church or a thriving church was growing church or a thriving church was growing church or a thriving church was like bread in a time of famine. It was like bread in a time of famine. It was like bread in a time of famine. It was like, okay, I need to get something like, okay, I need to get something like, okay, I need to get something that will help us turn these that will help us turn these that will help us turn these dying churches around, and Willow's books dying churches around, and Willow's books dying churches around, and Willow's books were coming out of that. There were

were coming out of that. There were were coming out of that. There were reports of Saddleback, I mean, back then reports of Saddleback, I mean, back then reports of Saddleback, I mean, back then . So I clung . So I clung . So I clung to them. Any bite she could to them. Any bite she could to them. Any bite she could get her hands on, and Willow was part of get her hands on, and Willow was part of get her hands on, and Willow was part of that. And the church growth movement that. And the church growth movement that. And the church growth movement , I mean, you know, I think , I mean, you know, I think , I mean, you know, I think Gordon MacDonald told me that Gordon MacDonald told me that Gordon MacDonald told me that before the 1970s, I think there were before the 1970s, I think there were before the 1970s, I think there were only a handful of churches with only a handful of churches with only a handful of churches with more than a thousand people in the United States. It more than a thousand people in the United States. It more than a thousand people in the United States. It simply didn't happen. It was the simply didn't happen. It was the simply didn't happen. It was the local church, it was small and you went to the local church, it was small and you went to the local church, it was small and you went to the church in your neighborhood. And then church in your neighborhood. And then church in your neighborhood. And then the megachurch movement was born. the megachurch movement was born. Willow was a kind of Willow was a kind of focal point for this, but there were many focal point for this, but there were many focal point for this, but there were many other churches that experienced other churches that experienced other churches that experienced growth, and then in the late growth, and then in the late growth, and then in the late 1990s and early 2000s, 1990s and early 2000s, 1990s and early 2000s, multi-site churches and multi-site churches and multi-site churches and video churches were starting up. And of course, video churches were starting up. And of course, video churches were starting up. And of course, now we are in the 2020s, now we are in the 2020s, now we are in the 2020s, heirs to all of that. What were heirs to all of that. What were heirs to all of that. What were the strengths and weaknesses of that the strengths and weaknesses of that the strengths and weaknesses of that moment and that movement? Because we moment and that movement? Because we moment and that movement? Because we have also seen, even in Willow have also seen, even in Willow , that many leaders ended up , that many leaders ended up , that many leaders ended up failing morally. There are three paths failing morally. There are three paths . It was like a moral failure. Well, one . It was like a moral failure. Well, one . It was like a moral failure. Well, one path is to serve faithfully for 35 or path is to serve faithfully for 35 or path is to serve faithfully for 35 or 40 years and then retire from 40 years and then retire from 40 years and then retire from active ministry. And that happens, but it active ministry. And that happens, but it active ministry. And that happens, but it never makes the headlines. But if you're never makes the headlines. But if you're never makes the headlines. But if you're going to get knocked out, it was a moral failure because of, you going to get knocked out, it was a moral failure because of, you know, sexual misconduct, know, sexual misconduct, know, sexual misconduct, financial misconduct, it could be financial misconduct, it could be financial misconduct, it could be burnout. I simply can't, or it burnout. I simply can't, or it burnout. I simply can't, or it could be that I'm simply not could be that I'm simply not could be that I'm simply not exhausted; I didn't do anything immoral. But I can't exhausted; I didn't do anything immoral. But I can't exhausted; I didn't do anything immoral. But I can't keep doing this anymore. I can't keep doing this anymore. I can't keep doing this anymore. I can't keep doing it anymore. And the people would give up keep doing it anymore. And the people would give up keep doing it anymore. And the people would give up . So we saw and are

. So we saw and are . So we saw and are seeing a reaction to all of that now. seeing a reaction to all of that now. seeing a reaction to all of that now. We live in different models, in a We live in different models, in a We live in different models, in a different era, a new generation different era, a new generation different era, a new generation of leaders comes along, looks at the baby of leaders comes along, looks at the baby of leaders comes along, looks at the baby boomers and some of Generation X boomers and some of Generation X boomers and some of Generation X who pioneered that and says, "Yeah who pioneered that and says, "Yeah , I'm not going to do it that way." " , I'm not going to do it that way." " So, what were some of the So, what were some of the So, what were some of the strengths that might have been strengths that might have been strengths that might have been overlooked? And what were some of the overlooked? And what were some of the overlooked? And what were some of the weaknesses that you saw at the time or weaknesses that you saw at the time or weaknesses that you saw at the time or that became apparent in that became apparent in that became apparent in hindsight? hindsight? Wow. Well, let me start from Wow. Well, let me start from the beginning. In 1992, when we founded the beginning. In 1992, when we founded the beginning. In 1992, when we founded the Willow Creek Association, the the Willow Creek Association, the the Willow Creek Association, the following year the board asked me to following year the board asked me to following year the board asked me to take on the leadership role of the take on the leadership role of the take on the leadership role of the association in '93. My first association in '93. My first association in '93. My first question was, 'What is this?' There were question was, 'What is this?' There were question was, 'What is this?' There were people saying to me, 'I'm 29 or 30 people saying to me, 'I'm 29 or 30 people saying to me, 'I'm 29 or 30 years old.' I'd never led years old.' I'd never led years old.' I'd never led anything before. And now I'm leading this, and anything before. And now I'm leading this, and anything before. And now I'm leading this, and that was my first question: 'What is that was my first question: 'What is that was my first question: 'What is this?'" "What's going on?" And there was this?'" "What's going on?" And there was this?'" "What's going on?" And there was a sense of movement. So I a sense of movement. So I a sense of movement. So I started learning about started learning about started learning about past movements. Let me learn about the past movements. Let me learn about the past movements. Let me learn about the Sunday school movement. I had already Sunday school movement. I had already Sunday school movement. I had already learned a lot about the learned a lot about the learned a lot about the soul movement and the soul movement and the soul movement and the church movement there. So I started church movement there. So I started church movement there. So I started immersing myself in trying to learn about immersing myself in trying to learn about immersing myself in trying to learn about past movements, present movements, and so on.

past movements, present movements, and so on. So there's the So there's the real-life case study method. real-life case study method. real-life case study method. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes, exactly. Exactly. There were people saying, "Oh, that's going to There were people saying, "Oh, that's going to be another denomination." It's going to be be another denomination." It's going to be be another denomination." It's going to be a new denomination." I thought it was a new denomination." I thought it was a new denomination." I thought it was n't worth it, because in that n't worth it, because in that n't worth it, because in that first year we already had 250 first year we already had 250 first year we already had 250 member churches. I thought, "I didn't member churches. I thought, "I didn't member churches. I thought, "I didn't have the energy to think about that because have the energy to think about that because have the energy to think about that because in that first year we had 250 in that first year we had 250 in that first year we had 250 member churches." We already had more than member churches." We already had more than member churches." We already had more than 60 denominations represented. And 60 denominations represented. And 60 denominations represented. And none of them said, "I want to leave none of them said, "I want to leave none of them said, "I want to leave my denomination." So what was the my denomination." So what was the my denomination." So what was the name of that thing called the name of that thing called the name of that thing called the Willow Creek Association? So I came across a Willow Creek Association? So I came across a Willow Creek Association? So I came across a book called Diffusion of Innovations book called Diffusion of Innovations . A guy named Everett Rogers . A guy named Everett Rogers . A guy named Everett Rogers wrote the book. wrote the book. wrote the book. Yes. Yes. Yes. And it's the executive summary of 4,000 And it's the executive summary of 4,000 And it's the executive summary of 4,000 innovation diffusions, so to innovation diffusions, so to innovation diffusions, so to speak, of how new ideas, speak, of how new ideas, speak, of how new ideas, new things, became normal in new things, became normal in new things, became normal in society and culture. And then society and culture. And then society and culture. And then I said, "I have to go meet this I said, "I have to go meet this I said, "I have to go meet this guy." "I was a professor at the University guy." "I was a professor at the University guy." "I was a professor at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque. Bob of New Mexico in Albuquerque. Bob of New Mexico in Albuquerque. Bob Buford accompanied me, if you remember Buford accompanied me, if you remember Buford accompanied me, if you remember Bob. We went there and spent some time Bob. We went there and spent some time Bob. We went there and spent some time with him, and he was the first to say, ' with him, and he was the first to say, ' with him, and he was the first to say, ' Jimmy, I think the Willow Jimmy, I think the Willow Jimmy, I think the Willow Creek Association and the Leadership Network are Creek Association and the Leadership Network are Creek Association and the Leadership Network are diffusion networks.' I said, 'Well, what diffusion networks.' I said, 'Well, what diffusion networks.' I said, 'Well, what 's a diffusion network?'" "." Yes, yes.

's a diffusion network?'" "." Yes, yes. 's a diffusion network?'" "." Yes, yes. Let's talk about that." Then he says, " Let's talk about that." Then he says, " Let's talk about that." Then he says, " In a system, in a tribe, so to In a system, in a tribe, so to In a system, in a tribe, so to speak, not everyone is open to speak, not everyone is open to speak, not everyone is open to innovation and new ideas." They innovation and new ideas." They innovation and new ideas." They accept them, adopt them, and develop them accept them, adopt them, and develop them accept them, adopt them, and develop them to varying degrees." And he is, in to varying degrees." And he is, in to varying degrees." And he is, in fact, the father. If you've ever fact, the father. If you've ever fact, the father. If you've ever heard of the 2% innovators, the heard of the 2% innovators, the heard of the 2% innovators, the early adopters, the early adopters, the early adopters, the early majority, the late majority, the early majority, the late majority, the early majority, the late majority, the laggards, he's the father of that laggards, he's the father of that laggards, he's the father of that research. research. research. He created that diffusion of He created that diffusion of He created that diffusion of innovation chart we've all seen, innovation chart we've all seen, right? right? right? Exactly. Most Exactly. Most Exactly. Most marketing strategies are marketing strategies are marketing strategies are rooted in that kind of understanding of rooted in that kind of understanding of rooted in that kind of understanding of how to reach a group of people with how to reach a group of people with how to reach a group of people with something new. And he said, "You have a gift something new. And he said, "You have a gift something new. And he said, "You have a gift that I don't think you even realize that I don't think you even realize that I don't think you even realize is a gift." Let me tell you what I is a gift." Let me tell you what I is a gift." Let me tell you what I think is going on here. There is think is going on here. There is think is going on here. There is an innovation underway within an innovation underway within an innovation underway within Willow Creek. And because these Willow Creek. And because these Willow Creek. And because these pioneering leaders, whom we call pioneering leaders, whom we call pioneering leaders, whom we call 2% innovators or 2% innovators or 2% innovators or 14% first users, that's 16%. Call them 14% first users, that's 16%. Call them 14% first users, that's 16%. Call them pioneers. These pioneering and pioneers. These pioneering and pioneers. These pioneering and innovative leaders learn best from innovative leaders learn best from innovative leaders learn best from other innovators and pioneers. And because other innovators and pioneers. And because other innovators and pioneers. And because of that, they will travel anywhere, of that, they will travel anywhere, of that, they will travel anywhere, go anywhere, and spend go anywhere, and spend go anywhere, and spend any amount of money to any amount of money to any amount of money to learn from other innovators. This is learn from other innovators. This is learn from other innovators. This is a fundamental characteristic of this a fundamental characteristic of this a fundamental characteristic of this 2% and 14%, and that's why they come to you.

2% and 14%, and that's why they come to you. 2% and 14%, and that's why they come to you. Typically, in an industry, companies Typically, in an industry, companies Typically, in an industry, companies have to spend a lot of money to have to spend a lot of money to have to spend a lot of money to find the 2% to 14% of early find the 2% to 14% of early find the 2% to 14% of early adopters to form a adopters to form a adopters to form a critical mass that will adopt the new product, critical mass that will adopt the new product, critical mass that will adopt the new product, the new method, whatever it is that's new; And the new method, whatever it is that's new; And the new method, whatever it is that's new; And then, that leads to the adoption by the then, that leads to the adoption by the then, that leads to the adoption by the next 2/3 of that tribe or community next 2/3 of that tribe or community , that market, so to speak, , that market, so to speak, , that market, so to speak, quite quickly. So, you don't have to quite quickly. So, you don't have to quite quickly. So, you don't have to spend money to find them, spend money to find them, spend money to find them, they come to you. They join your they come to you. They join your they come to you. They join your organization, and this is why they do organization, and this is why they do organization, and this is why they do n't want to leave their n't want to leave their n't want to leave their denominations. They don't want to abandon their denominations. They don't want to abandon their denominations. They don't want to abandon their tradition, but they want help tradition, but they want help . And they know that only other pioneers, . And they know that only other pioneers, . And they know that only other pioneers, other leaders trying to do other leaders trying to do other leaders trying to do similar things in different contexts, similar things in different contexts, similar things in different contexts, can help them. That's why they come to you. can help them. That's why they come to you. can help them. That's why they come to you. And we were at a point where about And we were at a point where about And we were at a point where about 25,000 leaders a year were coming to 25,000 leaders a year were coming to 25,000 leaders a year were coming to Willow Creek physically and Willow Creek physically and Willow Creek physically and personally to learn about the church personally to learn about the church . That's how I met Craig . That's how I met Craig . That's how I met Craig Rochelle back then, Andy Rochelle back then, Andy Rochelle back then, Andy Stanley, Erwin McManus, and a long Stanley, Erwin McManus, and a long Stanley, Erwin McManus, and a long list of these pioneering leaders. That's what they list of these pioneering leaders. That's what they list of these pioneering leaders. That's what they had in common. And that's had in common. And that's had in common. And that's when Eb said, "Now, this when Eb said, "Now, this when Eb said, "Now, this is the power of a diffusion network.

is the power of a diffusion network. is the power of a diffusion network. When you speak to and influence the When you speak to and influence the When you speak to and influence the right group of people in a tribe, in right group of people in a tribe, in right group of people in a tribe, in a community, they set the tone a community, they set the tone a community, they set the tone for the entire system." for the entire system." So, if this Methodist church So, if this Methodist church returns home and a critical mass of returns home and a critical mass of returns home and a critical mass of Methodist churches begins to innovate Methodist churches begins to innovate Methodist churches begins to innovate and do things in new ways, that and do things in new ways, that and do things in new ways, that provides leadership to churches provides leadership to churches provides leadership to churches that would never cross the gates of that would never cross the gates of that would never cross the gates of Willow Creek. Willow Creek. Willow Creek. Yes. They probably shouldn't. But they Yes. They probably shouldn't. But they Yes. They probably shouldn't. But they are influenced by their sisters are influenced by their sisters are influenced by their sisters in the Methodist, Presbyterian, in the Methodist, Presbyterian, in the Methodist, Presbyterian, or Lutheran church, whatever. So, you or Lutheran church, whatever. So, you or Lutheran church, whatever. So, you 're talking to the pioneers and 're talking to the pioneers and 're talking to the pioneers and innovators in each of these innovators in each of these innovators in each of these systems, and that's why, even though systems, and that's why, even though systems, and that's why, even though you have 200 churches, you already have more than you have 200 churches, you already have more than you have 200 churches, you already have more than 60 denominations, more than 60 60 denominations, more than 60 60 denominations, more than 60 church systems represented. So, church systems represented. So, church systems represented. So, we designed, and Bob Buford designed his we designed, and Bob Buford designed his we designed, and Bob Buford designed his leadership network ministry to leadership network ministry to leadership network ministry to focus on the 2%, and we organized the focus on the 2%, and we organized the focus on the 2%, and we organized the Willow Creek Partnership to focus Willow Creek Partnership to focus Willow Creek Partnership to focus more on the early adopters of the 14%. more on the early adopters of the 14%. So, we were very strategic about it So, we were very strategic about it and created experiences and and created experiences and and created experiences and resources that would serve resources that would serve resources that would serve innovators, pioneers. And then, as they innovators, pioneers. And then, as they innovators, pioneers. And then, as they prevailed, the various prevailed, the various prevailed, the various systems they influenced also systems they influenced also systems they influenced also prevailed. And we reached the point where prevailed. And we reached the point where prevailed. And we reached the point where we thought the critical mass we thought the critical mass we thought the critical mass would be about 10,000 to 15,000 churches would be about 10,000 to 15,000 churches would be about 10,000 to 15,000 churches in the United States. We ended up having about in the United States. We ended up having about in the United States. We ended up having about 13,000 members in that whole 13,000 members in that whole 13,000 members in that whole movement, and we set about serving movement, and we set about serving movement, and we set about serving the pioneers. We're going to serve them all the pioneers. We're going to serve them all . At your service. Let's continue . At your service. Let's continue . At your service. Let's continue helping them learn from each other.

helping them learn from each other. helping them learn from each other. The strengths of that, and I'll get to the The strengths of that, and I'll get to the The strengths of that, and I'll get to the weaknesses, there are some big ones. The weaknesses, there are some big ones. The weaknesses, there are some big ones. The strengths of that were that we accelerated strengths of that were that we accelerated strengths of that were that we accelerated the time it took for a new idea the time it took for a new idea the time it took for a new idea that was effective to reach more that was effective to reach more that was effective to reach more churches. And that's what churches. And that's what churches. And that's what Everett Rogers also said, in one movement, there's Everett Rogers also said, in one movement, there's Everett Rogers also said, in one movement, there's a natural progression of how a natural progression of how a natural progression of how that happens: innovators, early adopters, that happens: innovators, early adopters, that happens: innovators, early adopters, early majority, etc. You, as an early majority, etc. You, as an early majority, etc. You, as an organization, can help accelerate organization, can help accelerate organization, can help accelerate that by serving those pioneers, that by serving those pioneers, that by serving those pioneers, helping them get to know each other, helping them helping them get to know each other, helping them helping them get to know each other, helping them connect with each other, helping them connect with each other, helping them connect with each other, helping them learn about best practices, learn about best practices, learn about best practices, celebrating role models, and celebrating celebrating role models, and celebrating celebrating role models, and celebrating victories and successes. The more you can victories and successes. The more you can victories and successes. The more you can do that, the faster do that, the faster do that, the faster the adoption of these new, the adoption of these new, the adoption of these new, more effective ways of participating in the more effective ways of participating in the more effective ways of participating in the church will accelerate. And that's what happened. At one church will accelerate. And that's what happened. At one church will accelerate. And that's what happened. At one point, over 80% of our point, over 80% of our point, over 80% of our member churches were growing. They were already about five or member churches were growing. They were already about five or member churches were growing. They were already about five or six times larger than the six times larger than the six times larger than the national average in terms of national average in terms of national average in terms of church size. And at one point, two- church size. And at one point, two- church size. And at one point, two- thirds of our churches were in thirds of our churches were in thirds of our churches were in capital campaigns, buying capital campaigns, buying capital campaigns, buying land, building buildings, land, building buildings, land, building buildings, growing, etc. So those growing, etc. So those growing, etc. So those were all some of the wonderful things were all some of the wonderful things were all some of the wonderful things about the reach, the connection, the about the reach, the connection, the about the reach, the connection, the relevance, the connection of the relevance, the connection of the relevance, the connection of the unchanging gospel of Jesus Christ with a unchanging gospel of Jesus Christ with a unchanging gospel of Jesus Christ with a changing culture. So all of that was changing culture. So all of that was changing culture. So all of that was positive, wonderful. I

positive, wonderful. I positive, wonderful. I just want to make a small just want to make a small just want to make a small editorial comment and then I want to editorial comment and then I want to editorial comment and then I want to get to the weaknesses. The part is that get to the weaknesses. The part is that get to the weaknesses. The part is that most leaders or the most leaders or the most leaders or the average leader who hears this is about 35 average leader who hears this is about 35 average leader who hears this is about 35 years old. And you know, you missed that years old. And you know, you missed that years old. And you know, you missed that era. And you might be saying: era. And you might be saying: era. And you might be saying: well, you know, we have YouTube, well, you know, we have YouTube, well, you know, we have YouTube, we have the Internet, we have we have the Internet, we have we have the Internet, we have social media, and now we have social media, and now we have social media, and now we have direct connections. Yes, but we didn't do it in direct connections. Yes, but we didn't do it in direct connections. Yes, but we didn't do it in the '90s and early 2000s. And the '90s and early 2000s. And the '90s and early 2000s. And what was happening, I mean, what was happening, I mean, what was happening, I mean, feel free to qualify this however feel free to qualify this however feel free to qualify this however you want because I think we only understand you want because I think we only understand you want because I think we only understand the present moment when we understand the present moment when we understand the present moment when we understand how we got here, which is what I think how we got here, which is what I think how we got here, which is what I think Todd called his book, how Todd called his book, how Todd called his book, how we got here. But those were bites we got here. But those were bites we got here. But those were bites in what seemed like a famine. And in what seemed like a famine. And in what seemed like a famine. And denominational structures were denominational structures were denominational structures were beginning to change, and I think a lot beginning to change, and I think a lot beginning to change, and I think a lot of the new leaders, my generation of the new leaders, my generation of the new leaders, my generation of leaders, you know, the 30-year-olds of leaders, you know, the 30-year-olds of leaders, you know, the 30-year-olds from the 90s, would come in and say, "Oh, this from the 90s, would come in and say, "Oh, this from the 90s, would come in and say, "Oh, this smells like the last century." And we looked around for smells like the last century." And we looked around for smells like the last century." And we looked around for any any any sign of life. And for the first time, there were sign of life. And for the first time, there were sign of life. And for the first time, there were conferences and events and there were what conferences and events and there were what conferences and events and there were what we would consider model churches, you we would consider model churches, you we would consider model churches, you know, you mentioned the big ones. The know, you mentioned the big ones. The know, you mentioned the big ones. The first time I met Craig was at first time I met Craig was at first time I met Craig was at a Willow event, I think it was back in a Willow event, I think it was back in a Willow event, I think it was back in 2004 or 2005. He was kind enough to 2004 or 2005. He was kind enough to 2004 or 2005. He was kind enough to have lunch with me, simply welcoming have lunch with me, simply welcoming have lunch with me, simply welcoming this unfortunate man who said, "Hey this unfortunate man who said, "Hey , can we have lunch? I've been , can we have lunch? I've been , can we have lunch? I've been following church life following church life following church life online." And well, you know, we struck up online." And well, you know, we struck up online." And well, you know, we struck up a good friendship from then on. But a good friendship from then on. But a good friendship from then on. But that was a network that gave a lot of life.

that was a network that gave a lot of life. that was a network that gave a lot of life. When he was at his best, When he was at his best, When he was at his best, he had his weaknesses, but when he he had his weaknesses, but when he he had his weaknesses, but when he was at his best you shouldn't was at his best you shouldn't was at his best you shouldn't put people on pedestals, but put people on pedestals, but put people on pedestals, but when you're a young leader and you're when you're a young leader and you're when you're a young leader and you're desperate for something new, you're desperate for something new, you're desperate for something new, you're hungry. And then, of course, in 2005 hungry. And then, of course, in 2005 hungry. And then, of course, in 2005 YouTube appeared, the internet became YouTube appeared, the internet became YouTube appeared, the internet became broadband, and mobile devices broadband, and mobile devices broadband, and mobile devices became commonplace. Around became commonplace. Around became commonplace. Around 2012, the landscape began to change 2012, the landscape began to change 2012, the landscape began to change again, and it was more or less at the same time again, and it was more or less at the same time again, and it was more or less at the same time that all the cracks in the model we that all the cracks in the model we that all the cracks in the model we just described began to just described began to just described began to show and become public. Okay, is show and become public. Okay, is show and become public. Okay, is there anything else about strengths or there anything else about strengths or there anything else about strengths or anything you'd like to add to my note anything you'd like to add to my note anything you'd like to add to my note to younger leaders about to younger leaders about to younger leaders about how we got here? how we got here? I would say there was a feeling I would say there was a feeling among the leaders who were there. And among the leaders who were there. And among the leaders who were there. And I think that sometimes a movement is I think that sometimes a movement is I think that sometimes a movement is misinterpreted on this front. Some misinterpreted on this front. Some misinterpreted on this front. Some people thought the movement was people thought the movement was people thought the movement was simply about simplifying things simply about simplifying things simply about simplifying things for people, or just for people, or just for people, or just tickling their ears, or giving tickling their ears, or giving tickling their ears, or giving people what they wanted in people what they wanted in people what they wanted in church. It was never about that.

church. It was never about that. church. It was never about that. Yes. Yes. There was a beautiful essence to wanting to There was a beautiful essence to wanting to fully embrace the fully embrace the fully embrace the Jesus movement in ways that our Jesus movement in ways that our Jesus movement in ways that our human structures had made human structures had made seem irrelevant. And we can change seem irrelevant. And we can change human structures to go back human structures to go back human structures to go back and talk about innovating to the and talk about innovating to the and talk about innovating to the original all the time. You don't want to original all the time. You don't want to original all the time. You don't want to innovate for the sake of the new; you want to innovate innovate for the sake of the new; you want to innovate innovate for the sake of the new; you want to innovate your methods to better reflect the your methods to better reflect the your methods to better reflect the original essence of the original essence of the original essence of the Jesus movement. So, the human parts Jesus movement. So, the human parts Jesus movement. So, the human parts of it can be changeable, and of it can be changeable, and of it can be changeable, and sometimes we create methods around sometimes we create methods around sometimes we create methods around things created by humans that things created by humans that things created by humans that prevent people from hearing the prevent people from hearing the prevent people from hearing the wonderful, dangerous, and never- wonderful, dangerous, and never- wonderful, dangerous, and never- changing message of the gospel. changing message of the gospel. changing message of the gospel. So, there was an energy in the So, there was an energy in the So, there was an energy in the leaders that said, "Yes, let's change leaders that said, "Yes, let's change leaders that said, "Yes, let's change the human part so that the real part can the human part so that the real part can the human part so that the real part can have its powerful impact." And the have its powerful impact." And the have its powerful impact." And the words were: "Let's provide a words were: "Let's provide a words were: "Let's provide a safe place to hear a safe place to hear a safe place to hear a dangerous message." A dangerous message. It is not dangerous message." A dangerous message. It is not dangerous message." A dangerous message. It is not a safe place to listen to a a safe place to listen to a a safe place to listen to a weak message. So that was so weak message. So that was so weak message. So that was so beautiful to see in the leaders who beautiful to see in the leaders who beautiful to see in the leaders who came. They are so passionate about wanting came. They are so passionate about wanting came. They are so passionate about wanting Jesus to be...Basically, they want Jesus to be...Basically, they want Jesus to be...Basically, they want people to know Jesus. I mean people to know Jesus. I mean , it's not more fun than...

, it's not more fun than... , it's not more fun than... No, that's the heart of it all No, that's the heart of it all No, that's the heart of it all . And yet, there were traps. And yet . And yet, there were traps. And yet , there were weaknesses. , there were weaknesses. , there were weaknesses. So, looking back or So, looking back or So, looking back or even at that moment, what would you say? even at that moment, what would you say? even at that moment, what would you say? Because everyone seems to remember Because everyone seems to remember Because everyone seems to remember the weaknesses and forget the the weaknesses and forget the the weaknesses and forget the strengths. But what were strengths. But what were strengths. But what were some of the weaknesses that were some of the weaknesses that were some of the weaknesses that were evident at that time or in the evident at that time or in the evident at that time or in the rearview mirror, Jimmy? rearview mirror, Jimmy? rearview mirror, Jimmy? I think that's one of the most I think that's one of the most I think that's one of the most significant weaknesses that I wish we had significant weaknesses that I wish we had significant weaknesses that I wish we had known about along the way. And that's known about along the way. And that's known about along the way. And that's understanding the effect of scale. understanding the effect of scale. in the local parish, at the level of in the local parish, at the level of the local church. Scale in the local church. Scale in the local church. Scale in church life has always existed church life has always existed church life has always existed for almost 2000 years. It has always for almost 2000 years. It has always for almost 2000 years. It has always existed above the level of the existed above the level of the existed above the level of the local church or the level of the local church or the level of the local church or the level of the local parish. The infrastructure of local parish. The infrastructure of local parish. The infrastructure of the denominations is where the the denominations is where the the denominations is where the scale existed. Whether it's the Catholic Church or scale existed. Whether it's the Catholic Church or scale existed. Whether it's the Catholic Church or the Methodist Church, or any of them, the the Methodist Church, or any of them, the the Methodist Church, or any of them, the Church of England, all of them. In the Church of England, all of them. In the Church of England, all of them. In the megachurch movement, so to megachurch movement, so to megachurch movement, so to speak, and by the way, there were about speak, and by the way, there were about speak, and by the way, there were about a dozen churches with over 2,000 members a dozen churches with over 2,000 members a dozen churches with over 2,000 members in the 1970s.

in the 1970s. in the 1970s. Yes. Yes. Yes. And now there are almost 2,000 megachurches And now there are almost 2,000 megachurches , more than 2,000. So, I think there were about , more than 2,000. So, I think there were about , more than 2,000. So, I think there were about 1,000 churches with over 1,000 members 1,000 churches with over 1,000 members 1,000 churches with over 1,000 members in the 1980s, and I think there are in the 1980s, and I think there are in the 1980s, and I think there are closer to 8,000 churches with over 1,000 members now. closer to 8,000 churches with over 1,000 members now. closer to 8,000 churches with over 1,000 members now. So, it was a move in 2000 So, it was a move in 2000 So, it was a move in 2000 years of church history that had years of church history that had years of church history that had never happened before. And what never happened before. And what never happened before. And what I mean by that is the scale at the I mean by that is the scale at the I mean by that is the scale at the local church level. The local church level. The local church level. The average church size was always average church size was always average church size was always 20, 30, 40, 50 people in a 20, 30, 40, 50 people in a 20, 30, 40, 50 people in a congregation, and that changed in congregation, and that changed in congregation, and that changed in terms of seeing the scale at the terms of seeing the scale at the terms of seeing the scale at the local church level. And that's why people local church level. And that's why people local church level. And that's why people bought land, built buildings, bought land, built buildings, bought land, built buildings, and grew. This is something we didn't and grew. This is something we didn't and grew. This is something we didn't realize. The strategy of realize. The strategy of realize. The strategy of building a bigger box always building a bigger box always building a bigger box always hits a wall. 100% of the hits a wall. 100% of the hits a wall. 100% of the time. If your strategy is to keep time. If your strategy is to keep time. If your strategy is to keep building bigger buildings, building bigger buildings, building bigger buildings, building bigger rooms, you'll hit building bigger rooms, you'll hit building bigger rooms, you'll hit a wall. You know, a wall. You know, a wall. You know, Joel Osteen's church in Houston bought a Joel Osteen's church in Houston bought a Joel Osteen's church in Houston bought a basketball arena. basketball arena. basketball arena. Yes, I've been there. It's crazy.

Yes, I've been there. It's crazy. Yes, I've been there. It's crazy. A building like the one you can buy, A building like the one you can buy, A building like the one you can buy, and you know, they haven't bought a stadium and you know, they haven't bought a stadium and you know, they haven't bought a stadium since then. So it doesn't matter how since then. So it doesn't matter how since then. So it doesn't matter how big it is. Finally, that big it is. Finally, that big it is. Finally, that large room runs up against a wall. And that's why I do large room runs up against a wall. And that's why I do large room runs up against a wall. And that's why I do n't think we've n't think we've n't think we've fully understood the effect of scale and fully understood the effect of scale and fully understood the effect of scale and infrastructure when you apply it at the infrastructure when you apply it at the infrastructure when you apply it at the local church level. This is what I local church level. This is what I local church level. This is what I mean. Suddenly, the pastor, mean. Suddenly, the pastor, mean. Suddenly, the pastor, theologian, giver of mercy, theologian, giver of mercy, theologian, giver of mercy, teacher now has to be a teacher now has to be a teacher now has to be a CEO, resource allocator, CEO, resource allocator, CEO, resource allocator, land and building developer, land and building developer, land and building developer, staff development expert, staff development expert, staff development expert, organizational expert, and organizational expert, and organizational expert, and strategy expert. All of these are strategy expert. All of these are strategy expert. All of these are additional things that were never additional things that were never additional things that were never initially planned into the training, initially planned into the training, initially planned into the training, education, and culture of that education, and culture of that education, and culture of that local pastor, but are now being local pastor, but are now being local pastor, but are now being imposed on him. There are levels of pressure being imposed on him. There are levels of pressure being imposed on him. There are levels of pressure being exerted on that particular role in exerted on that particular role in exerted on that particular role in the life of the church that simply did the life of the church that simply did the life of the church that simply did not exist before at the not exist before at the not exist before at the local church level. And that had consequences local church level. And that had consequences . That's one thing. The second thing is . That's one thing. The second thing is . That's one thing. The second thing is the actual effect of scale on the the actual effect of scale on the the actual effect of scale on the expression of the Jesus movement expression of the Jesus movement expression of the Jesus movement itself at a local level. Now, let me itself at a local level. Now, let me itself at a local level. Now, let me explain a little.

explain a little. explain a little. Mhm. The Mhm. The Mhm. The first time I had a small idea first time I had a small idea first time I had a small idea that this might be the case was when that this might be the case was when that this might be the case was when I interviewed a lady named Terri I interviewed a lady named Terri I interviewed a lady named Terri Kelly. Terri Kelly was the Kelly. Terri Kelly was the Kelly. Terri Kelly was the CEO of Gore Gore, the company that CEO of Gore Gore, the company that CEO of Gore Gore, the company that manufactured Gore-Tex material. manufactured Gore-Tex material. manufactured Gore-Tex material. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yes. Well, they have a key patent Yes. Well, they have a key patent Yes. Well, they have a key patent for a material that allows the passage of for a material that allows the passage of for a material that allows the passage of small molecules, but not small molecules, but not small molecules, but not large molecules. It is breathable large molecules. It is breathable large molecules. It is breathable but water resistant. That is their but water resistant. That is their but water resistant. That is their main patent. They wanted to express main patent. They wanted to express main patent. They wanted to express that main patent in many that main patent in many that main patent in many different ways. Creativity was very different ways. Creativity was very different ways. Creativity was very important in their company and they important in their company and they important in their company and they rewarded it. Now, that patent is rewarded it. Now, that patent is rewarded it. Now, that patent is used for all kinds of purposes. used for all kinds of purposes. used for all kinds of purposes. Guitar strings, car headlights, dozens and Guitar strings, car headlights, dozens and Guitar strings, car headlights, dozens and dozens of uses for that technology. dozens of uses for that technology. They discovered that their future They discovered that their future really depended on fostering creativity. really depended on fostering creativity. really depended on fostering creativity. But this is what they discovered. In But this is what they discovered. In But this is what they discovered. In their plants, when their plants and their their plants, when their plants and their their plants, when their plants and their organizations in one location organizations in one location organizations in one location grew to more than 500 people, it grew to more than 500 people, it grew to more than 500 people, it began to have a reverse negative effect began to have a reverse negative effect began to have a reverse negative effect on creativity and the on creativity and the on creativity and the involvement of people in the involvement of people in the involvement of people in the plant. Creativity and plant. Creativity and plant. Creativity and engagement decreased. I'm going to engagement decreased. I'm going to engagement decreased. I'm going to work, I'm not part of the thing. And work, I'm not part of the thing. And work, I'm not part of the thing. And in the church, you don't go to the church, in the church, you don't go to the church, in the church, you don't go to the church, you are the church.

you are the church. you are the church. Correct. Correct. Correct. And if you don't take ownership of something, that has And if you don't take ownership of something, that has And if you don't take ownership of something, that has a negative effect. And the scale begins a negative effect. And the scale begins a negative effect. And the scale begins to make it easier or allow people to to make it easier or allow people to to make it easier or allow people to come and become consumers and come and become consumers and come and become consumers and owners. I go to church. I want it to owners. I go to church. I want it to owners. I go to church. I want it to be a great service with a great be a great service with a great be a great service with a great talk because I'm comparing myself to talk because I'm comparing myself to talk because I'm comparing myself to everyone I listen to on the internet. everyone I listen to on the internet. everyone I listen to on the internet. So, give me a great experience. And So, give me a great experience. And So, give me a great experience. And then another one the following week, and another one then another one the following week, and another one then another one the following week, and another one instead of "I don't go to church, I am instead of "I don't go to church, I am instead of "I don't go to church, I am the church. I am part of the church." the church. I am part of the church." the church. I am part of the church." It's a group of people. It's a group of people. It's a group of people. He created that consumer mentality. He created that consumer mentality. He created that consumer mentality. Yes, so Yes, so Yes, so nobody nobody nobody saw it coming, right? saw it coming, right? saw it coming, right? No, we just thought more people No, we just thought more people No, we just thought more people would come to Christ, that's great. That would come to Christ, that's great. That would come to Christ, that's great. That 's good news. You reach 80% 's good news. You reach 80% 's good news. You reach 80% capacity in your living room, that's when capacity in your living room, that's when capacity in your living room, that's when you start thinking about building a you start thinking about building a you start thinking about building a new living room, all that stuff. And we didn't realize it new living room, all that stuff. And we didn't realize it new living room, all that stuff. And we didn't realize it , wait a minute, wait , wait a minute, wait , wait a minute, wait a minute here. I think we need to a minute here. I think we need to a minute here. I think we need to take a step back and think about the take a step back and think about the take a step back and think about the effect of scale on the expression of effect of scale on the expression of effect of scale on the expression of the local church. And at some point, the local church. And at some point, the local church. And at some point, that could become so big that it that could become so big that it that could become so big that it actually starts to affect the actually starts to affect the actually starts to affect the Jesus movement itself. Not only does it Jesus movement itself. Not only does it Jesus movement itself. Not only does it put a lot of pressure on the leader put a lot of pressure on the leader , but it also affects the very movement , but it also affects the very movement , but it also affects the very movement with which we want to see a with which we want to see a with which we want to see a complete connection and for it to be expressed in a complete connection and for it to be expressed in a complete connection and for it to be expressed in a community. That's why I think, you know, community. That's why I think, you know, community. That's why I think, you know, when you start a church and you have when you start a church and you have when you start a church and you have three couples meeting in a three couples meeting in a three couples meeting in a basement, and then you add a new basement, and then you add a new basement, and then you add a new couple and they bring four children. Well, couple and they bring four children. Well, couple and they bring four children. Well, now you need to start having a now you need to start having a now you need to start having a children's ministry. And now you have to children's ministry. And now you have to children's ministry. And now you have to start taking care of the babies, who

start taking care of the babies, who start taking care of the babies, who then grow up and become then grow up and become then grow up and become teenagers. Therefore, there is a certain teenagers. Therefore, there is a certain teenagers. Therefore, there is a certain amount of infrastructure and scale amount of infrastructure and scale amount of infrastructure and scale that is useful, productive, and adds value that is useful, productive, and adds value that is useful, productive, and adds value to the Jesus movement at the local level. to the Jesus movement at the local level. Up to a point. And then, at Up to a point. And then, at some point, that scale begins to some point, that scale begins to some point, that scale begins to harm the movement. That's why I've harm the movement. That's why I've harm the movement. That's why I've often been asked, "So, often been asked, "So, where do you think that limit is?" I do where do you think that limit is?" I do n't know if there's a strict rule. But n't know if there's a strict rule. But I would challenge all leaders of I would challenge all leaders of I would challenge all leaders of a large church to look at a large church to look at a large church to look at this problem. Is scale this problem. Is scale this problem. Is scale affecting the things found affecting the things found affecting the things found in most large in most large in most large disciple-making churches? And one of the disciple-making churches? And one of the disciple-making churches? And one of the qualities, after having studied qualities, after having studied qualities, after having studied churches for decades, one of the churches for decades, one of the churches for decades, one of the qualities of a church that makes qualities of a church that makes qualities of a church that makes disciples is the transfer of disciples is the transfer of disciples is the transfer of ownership. Yes. And this is where ownership. Yes. And this is where ownership. Yes. And this is where scale can start to affect the scale can start to affect the scale can start to affect the property. When I go to church, I property. When I go to church, I property. When I go to church, I am not part of it, I am not the body of Christ.

am not part of it, I am not the body of Christ. am not part of it, I am not the body of Christ. So look at it as questions about So look at it as questions about So look at it as questions about that. I would say that probably in that that. I would say that probably in that that. I would say that probably in that 1000-1500 range is where you have 1000-1500 range is where you have 1000-1500 range is where you have likely obtained the likely obtained the likely obtained the benefits of some scale and it hasn't benefits of some scale and it hasn't benefits of some scale and it hasn't started to affect you negatively, started to affect you negatively, started to affect you negatively, but local dynamics but local dynamics but local dynamics could also affect that. Perhaps it could could also affect that. Perhaps it could could also affect that. Perhaps it could happen sooner. Perhaps you could happen sooner. Perhaps you could happen sooner. Perhaps you could stay there, you know, with a little stay there, you know, with a little stay there, you know, with a little more breadth, and you wouldn't lose those more breadth, and you wouldn't lose those more breadth, and you wouldn't lose those qualities that support the qualities that support the qualities that support the Jesus movement locally there; But Jesus movement locally there; But Jesus movement locally there; But discern, pray, ask questions, know that discern, pray, ask questions, know that discern, pray, ask questions, know that at some point there is a at some point there is a at some point there is a negative dynamic of scale in the negative dynamic of scale in the negative dynamic of scale in the Jesus movement to which you are surrendering your life Jesus movement to which you are surrendering your life Jesus movement to which you are surrendering your life to help spread it. to help spread it. It's a really important point, and one It's a really important point, and one that's not visible in the rearview mirror. that's not visible in the rearview mirror. that's not visible in the rearview mirror. As if we had to solve this. As if we had to solve this. As if we had to solve this. Warren Bird just sent me his Warren Bird just sent me his Warren Bird just sent me his report on megachurches that he has done report on megachurches that he has done report on megachurches that he has done on it, and Scott Thuma has done on it, and Scott Thuma has done on it, and Scott Thuma has done a lot of research. I read it once and it a lot of research. I read it once and it a lot of research. I read it once and it will appear in Church Trends 2027 because will appear in Church Trends 2027 because will appear in Church Trends 2027 because there is a lot of data, but this is the there is a lot of data, but this is the there is a lot of data, but this is the reality. Small churches continue to reality. Small churches continue to reality. Small churches continue to decline, stagnate, and become decline, stagnate, and become decline, stagnate, and become smaller. And I can't give you the smaller. And I can't give you the smaller. And I can't give you the statistics because I've only read it statistics because I've only read it statistics because I've only read it all once. It's a very all once. It's a very all once. It's a very detailed report. But the biggest ones detailed report. But the biggest ones detailed report. But the biggest ones get bigger. And get bigger. And get bigger. And disproportionately so, like there are 8,000 more disproportionately so, like there are 8,000 more disproportionately so, like there are 8,000 more churches than there are 1,000 or 2,000.

churches than there are 1,000 or 2,000. churches than there are 1,000 or 2,000. We're just pulling numbers out of We're just pulling numbers out of We're just pulling numbers out of thin air, so we'll check the data thin air, so we'll check the data thin air, so we'll check the data before it's published. Well, you before it's published. Well, you before it's published. Well, you know, 2000 out of more than 2000, of course. know, 2000 out of more than 2000, of course. know, 2000 out of more than 2000, of course. Okay, great. But they represent almost Okay, great. But they represent almost Okay, great. But they represent almost 40% of all 40% of all 40% of all church attendance in the United States church attendance in the United States church attendance in the United States . They are a tiny percentage of . They are a tiny percentage of . They are a tiny percentage of the 300,000 churches, the 300,000 churches, the 300,000 churches, but they represent a large part of but they represent a large part of but they represent a large part of those who actually attend church. It's those who actually attend church. It's those who actually attend church. It's not like looking back at what happened not like looking back at what happened not like looking back at what happened 20 years ago. It is a growing problem 20 years ago. It is a growing problem 20 years ago. It is a growing problem because that trend continues because that trend continues because that trend continues to multiply. I think one of the to multiply. I think one of the to multiply. I think one of the ways Willow got into this ways Willow got into this ways Willow got into this in recent years, but now more in recent years, but now more in recent years, but now more churches are doing it, is with churches are doing it, is with churches are doing it, is with smaller campuses. It's like, "Okay, smaller campuses. It's like, "Okay, smaller campuses. It's like, "Okay, we'll open another location." On the other we'll open another location." On the other we'll open another location." On the other hand, they are also running out of hand, they are also running out of hand, they are also running out of space. That's why the biggest auditoriums space. That's why the biggest auditoriums space. That's why the biggest auditoriums are back. Many are back. Many are back. Many churches with multiple locations are churches with multiple locations are churches with multiple locations are building auditoriums with 1,000 and building auditoriums with 1,000 and building auditoriums with 1,000 and 1,500 seats after 1,500 seats after 1,500 seats after reducing all their capacity before COVID. reducing all their capacity before COVID. reducing all their capacity before COVID. Well, I mean, this is just one Well, I mean, this is just one Well, I mean, this is just one point, you know, I think the point, you know, I think the point, you know, I think the regional movement is a good movement.

regional movement is a good movement. regional movement is a good movement. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because it's a horizontal growth strategy Because it's a horizontal growth strategy Because it's a horizontal growth strategy that says, "Hey, a that says, "Hey, a that says, "Hey, a vertical growth strategy— vertical growth strategy— vertical growth strategy— just keep building in one just keep building in one just keep building in one place—has its limits. Let's not wait until we've place—has its limits. Let's not wait until we've place—has its limits. Let's not wait until we've built a 5,000- built a 5,000- built a 5,000- seat auditorium and then discover we shouldn't have seat auditorium and then discover we shouldn't have seat auditorium and then discover we shouldn't have spent the next $100 spent the next $100 spent the next $100 million on it. Let's start with a million on it. Let's start with a million on it. Let's start with a horizontal growth strategy horizontal growth strategy horizontal growth strategy from the beginning. Because that from the beginning. Because that from the beginning. Because that way you get some of the benefit way you get some of the benefit way you get some of the benefit of scale because you're in a network. of scale because you're in a network. of scale because you're in a network. Yes. Yes. Yes. And at the same time, you can keep it And at the same time, you can keep it And at the same time, you can keep it where there's a high level of ownership and where there's a high level of ownership and where there's a high level of ownership and people are involved in what's going on people are involved in what's going on people are involved in what's going on . They don't feel like, 'Oh, I'm . They don't feel like, 'Oh, I'm . They don't feel like, 'Oh, I'm just going to go and observe things.'" You are just going to go and observe things.'" You are just going to go and observe things.'" You are part of the movement. That's where part of the movement. That's where you get enough scale that is you get enough scale that is useful but not detrimental to the useful but not detrimental to the useful but not detrimental to the movement. And that is why Terry movement. And that is why Terry movement. And that is why Terry Kelly, in the example of Gore-Tex, Kelly, in the example of Gore-Tex, Kelly, in the example of Gore-Tex, keeps his manufacturing plants keeps his manufacturing plants keeps his manufacturing plants with around 500 people. with around 500 people.

Because that was the line they saw Because that was the line they saw when it surpassed 500 people; Then when it surpassed 500 people; Then when it surpassed 500 people; Then you started having more of a, "Uh, I you started having more of a, "Uh, I ...I'm not the owner, I'm...I'm just doing my ...I'm not the owner, I'm...I'm just doing my ...I'm not the owner, I'm...I'm just doing my job, but I don't need to own job, but I don't need to own job, but I don't need to own what's going on here," and that had what's going on here," and that had what's going on here," and that had a negative effect on creativity. a negative effect on creativity. So, you know, that same dynamic , I think you see it in the life of the , I think you see it in the life of the , I think you see it in the life of the church. church. church. I think that's a very good point, and as I think that's a very good point, and as I think that's a very good point, and as Andy would say, you have to manage your Andy would say, you have to manage your Andy would say, you have to manage your attention. I don't know how we can attention. I don't know how we can attention. I don't know how we can solve the problem. Let's talk about the solve the problem. Let's talk about the solve the problem. Let's talk about the pressure of running a large pressure of running a large pressure of running a large organization. You must have felt it. I mean organization. You must have felt it. I mean organization. You must have felt it. I mean , you have , you have , you have ambitious goals. You start with no churches, ambitious goals. You start with no churches, ambitious goals. You start with no churches, you end up with 13,000 churches. Uh, you end up with 13,000 churches. Uh, you end up with 13,000 churches. Uh, Willow Creek, obviously, we've Willow Creek, obviously, we've Willow Creek, obviously, we've covered from numerous angles on covered from numerous angles on covered from numerous angles on this podcast what happened with Bill and this podcast what happened with Bill and this podcast what happened with Bill and the moral failings there. Well, that's the moral failings there. Well, that's the moral failings there. Well, that's happened in many churches. happened in many churches. happened in many churches. And as I said, sometimes it's sexual, And as I said, sometimes it's sexual, And as I said, sometimes it's sexual, sometimes financial, sometimes exhaustion, sometimes financial, sometimes exhaustion, sometimes financial, sometimes exhaustion, sometimes it's like, I can't take it anymore. And we sometimes it's like, I can't take it anymore. And we sometimes it's like, I can't take it anymore. And we all graduated from seminars that, all graduated from seminars that, all graduated from seminars that, frankly, had no idea frankly, had no idea frankly, had no idea how to lead more than 200 people.

how to lead more than 200 people. how to lead more than 200 people. I had no preparation for I had no preparation for I had no preparation for that and I almost broke down and died before that and I almost broke down and died before that and I almost broke down and died before reaching a thousand. That pressure almost reaching a thousand. That pressure almost reaching a thousand. That pressure almost killed me, Jimmy. You already know my story of killed me, Jimmy. You already know my story of killed me, Jimmy. You already know my story of exhaustion. It was brutal. So I had to exhaustion. It was brutal. So I had to exhaustion. It was brutal. So I had to learn all those lessons in learn all those lessons in learn all those lessons in real time and, fortunately, in my real time and, fortunately, in my real time and, fortunately, in my case I didn't have any case I didn't have any case I didn't have any disqualifying incidents in my life. I could have, disqualifying incidents in my life. I could have, disqualifying incidents in my life. I could have, well, I chose not to back down. My well, I chose not to back down. My well, I chose not to back down. My body gave up before it could body gave up before it could body gave up before it could simply leave me. And I look back simply leave me. And I look back simply leave me. And I look back and see that he was merciful at and see that he was merciful at and see that he was merciful at that moment because I don't know what would have happened that moment because I don't know what would have happened that moment because I don't know what would have happened if I had if I had if I had continued at that unsustainable pace. The continued at that unsustainable pace. The continued at that unsustainable pace. The pressures of leading something bigger and pressures of leading something bigger and pressures of leading something bigger and everyone wants their church to everyone wants their church to everyone wants their church to grow, but I don't think anyone has grow, but I don't think anyone has grow, but I don't think anyone has thought about a church of 5,000, 10,000, thought about a church of 5,000, 10,000, thought about a church of 5,000, 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 these days, 50,000, 20,000, 30,000 these days, 50,000, 20,000, 30,000 these days, 50,000, 80,000 in the United States. What 80,000 in the United States. What 80,000 in the United States. What did you learn about pressure? What did you learn about pressure? What did you learn about pressure? What are they? And now you lead a are they? And now you lead a are they? And now you lead a global movement at Compassion. What are you global movement at Compassion. What are you global movement at Compassion. What are you learning about the pressures of learning about the pressures of learning about the pressures of leadership and how to handle them?

leadership and how to handle them? It was interesting. It was about 13 or 14 It was interesting. It was about 13 or 14 years ago, just as I started coming years ago, just as I started coming years ago, just as I started coming here, that I became aware of the reality here, that I became aware of the reality here, that I became aware of the reality that some of the people I that some of the people I that some of the people I knew and admired, etc., knew and admired, etc., knew and admired, etc., had made decisions that had had made decisions that had had made decisions that had very detrimental effects on their lives, very detrimental effects on their lives, very detrimental effects on their lives, their marriages, their ministries. their marriages, their ministries. Several people, but it all happened within a Several people, but it all happened within a year. year. year. It's like a cluster. It's like a cluster. It's like a cluster. Yes, there was a cluster. Very focused. Yes, there was a cluster. Very focused. And I was a little depressed, actually, And I was a little depressed, actually, at that time, because I was just now getting into at that time, because I was just now getting into at that time, because I was just now getting into Compassion, and Compassion, and Compassion, and I remember thinking this: "Is this going to be I remember thinking this: "Is this going to be I remember thinking this: "Is this going to be my destiny? Is this my eventuality? my destiny? Is this my eventuality? my destiny? Is this my eventuality? It's only a matter of time before I It's only a matter of time before I It's only a matter of time before I make bad decisions that destroy make bad decisions that destroy make bad decisions that destroy my life, my marriage, my ministry, my life, my marriage, my ministry, my life, my marriage, my ministry, all of that. Is this inevitable?" And all of that. Is this inevitable?" And all of that. Is this inevitable?" And then I thought right after that, then I thought right after that, then I thought right after that, I thought if that's what I thought if that's what I thought if that's what leadership requires, I don't want anything to do leadership requires, I don't want anything to do leadership requires, I don't want anything to do with it. I will not pay that price. And the with it. I will not pay that price. And the with it. I will not pay that price. And the good news is that I don't think God is good news is that I don't think God is good news is that I don't think God is asking me to pay that price.

asking me to pay that price. And I started thinking, well, He says And I started thinking, well, He says that His burden is easy and His yoke, you that His burden is easy and His yoke, you that His burden is easy and His yoke, you know, His yoke is easy, the burden is know, His yoke is easy, the burden is know, His yoke is easy, the burden is light. He says that, so why does it light. He says that, so why does it light. He says that, so why does it feel so heavy? And then I thought, feel so heavy? And then I thought, feel so heavy? And then I thought, well, who made it heavy? I well, who made it heavy? I well, who made it heavy? I made it heavy. I was the one who made it made it heavy. I was the one who made it made it heavy. I was the one who made it heavy, not God. And I remember feeling heavy, not God. And I remember feeling heavy, not God. And I remember feeling very hurt, distressed, depressed very hurt, distressed, depressed very hurt, distressed, depressed by the leadership, and I went to my first by the leadership, and I went to my first by the leadership, and I went to my first vision projection talk at vision projection talk at vision projection talk at Compassion about how I was feeling at Compassion about how I was feeling at Compassion about how I was feeling at that moment because I thought, "If that's what it that moment because I thought, "If that's what it that moment because I thought, "If that's what it takes, I don't want to do it." takes, I don't want to do it." takes, I don't want to do it." And yet, I feel enormously And yet, I feel enormously And yet, I feel enormously called to what we are doing called to what we are doing called to what we are doing within Compassion. And for me, within Compassion. And for me, within Compassion. And for me, equipping churches. Now I can be equipping churches. Now I can be equipping churches. Now I can be part of equipping churches in some of part of equipping churches in some of part of equipping churches in some of the most difficult places in the world the most difficult places in the world the most difficult places in the world because we only carry out our because we only carry out our because we only carry out our ministry through churches. So ministry through churches. So ministry through churches. So I'm in the middle of...I'm not I'm in the middle of...I'm not I'm in the middle of...I'm not above making bad decisions. I above making bad decisions. I above making bad decisions. I am not above any of the am not above any of the am not above any of the people I met, friends and all that people I met, friends and all that . I am not above them. I could . I am not above them. I could ... I'm very capable of making very bad ... I'm very capable of making very bad ... I'm very capable of making very bad decisions. I don't want to. How could I decisions. I don't want to. How could I decisions. I don't want to. How could I not? And that's when I started to not? And that's when I started to ... well, I'm very connected with John ... well, I'm very connected with John ... well, I'm very connected with John Ortberg as well, and that's when Ortberg as well, and that's when Ortberg as well, and that's when this idea came up that who I'm this idea came up that who I'm this idea came up that who I'm becoming as a person and as a becoming as a person and as a becoming as a person and as a leader, who I'm becoming leader, who I'm becoming , is actually the most , is actually the most , is actually the most important contribution I can make to

important contribution I can make to important contribution I can make to compassion and the kingdom of God in compassion and the kingdom of God in compassion and the kingdom of God in general beyond that. And what general beyond that. And what general beyond that. And what God really gets out of my life is God really gets out of my life is God really gets out of my life is who I have become, not what I who I have become, not what I who I have become, not what I have done. And that my actions in Christ have done. And that my actions in Christ have done. And that my actions in Christ only have eternal value if they are an only have eternal value if they are an only have eternal value if they are an organic fruit, an organic fruit of organic fruit, an organic fruit of organic fruit, an organic fruit of who I am becoming in who I am becoming in who I am becoming in Christ. Any result that does not Christ. Any result that does not Christ. Any result that does not stem from that is simply worthless. stem from that is simply worthless. That's what 1 Corinthians 13 tells us: That's what 1 Corinthians 13 tells us: even if I gave all my wealth, my life, and even if I gave all my wealth, my life, and even if I gave all my wealth, my life, and everything to the poor, but if I don't do it, everything to the poor, but if I don't do it, everything to the poor, but if I don't do it, if it's not motivated by the if it's not motivated by the if it's not motivated by the right kind of heartfelt love, which is what right kind of heartfelt love, which is what right kind of heartfelt love, which is what comes from the right person in comes from the right person in comes from the right person in Christ, it has no value. It has no value. Christ, it has no value. It has no value. Christ, it has no value. It has no value. Sometimes I think we don't Sometimes I think we don't Sometimes I think we don't really believe it. Well, that's true. And at that really believe it. Well, that's true. And at that really believe it. Well, that's true. And at that moment, and every time I have the moment, and every time I have the moment, and every time I have the opportunity, I try to tell our opportunity, I try to tell our opportunity, I try to tell our Compassion people that the Compassion people that the Compassion people that the most important contribution they will make most important contribution they will make most important contribution they will make to this ministry is not what they to this ministry is not what they to this ministry is not what they do, but who they are do, but who they are do, but who they are becoming. And I'm not kidding. I'm becoming. And I'm not kidding. I'm becoming. And I'm not kidding. I'm serious. And we can even do serious. And we can even do serious. And we can even do incredible work, and often this incredible work, and often this incredible work, and often this is very tempting when you're in an is very tempting when you're in an is very tempting when you're in an informal ministry like ours, informal ministry like ours, informal ministry like ours, the Compassion churches, serving the Compassion churches, serving the Compassion churches, serving the poor and children in poverty the poor and children in poverty , freeing them from , freeing them from , freeing them from a global need. I mean, a global need. I mean, a global need. I mean, it's a wonderful, noble, and it's a wonderful, noble, and it's a wonderful, noble, and incredible mission. And sometimes we put the incredible mission. And sometimes we put the incredible mission. And sometimes we put the mission and place God on the throne mission and place God on the throne mission and place God on the throne of our lives and put the mission of our lives and put the mission of our lives and put the mission there. And nothing.

there. And nothing. there. And nothing. Well, their mission is also almost Well, their mission is also almost Well, their mission is also almost endless in human terms. I know there is endless in human terms. I know there is endless in human terms. I know there is a numerical limit to poverty, a numerical limit to poverty, a numerical limit to poverty, but they haven't solved global poverty. but they haven't solved global poverty. but they haven't solved global poverty. No. They've No. They've No. They've made a big difference, but the made a big difference, but the made a big difference, but the problem is even bigger than... what problem is even bigger than... what problem is even bigger than... what is it? 2 million children whom they is it? 2 million children whom they is it? 2 million children whom they are helping to get to know Jesus and to are helping to get to know Jesus and to are helping to get to know Jesus and to lift them out of poverty. lift them out of poverty. lift them out of poverty. Currently, we serve about Currently, we serve about Currently, we serve about 1.4% of eligible children, with 1.4% of eligible children, with 1.4% of eligible children, with poverty being the main requirement to poverty being the main requirement to poverty being the main requirement to access the program in the 29 countries access the program in the 29 countries access the program in the 29 countries where we provide services. where we provide services. where we provide services. We only meet 1.4% of the needs. We only meet 1.4% of the needs. We only meet 1.4% of the needs. So, that's So, that's So, that's the point, right? You could work the point, right? You could work the point, right? You could work 24/7 at an unsustainable and 24/7 at an unsustainable and 24/7 at an unsustainable and unscalable pace. I think I've been on the unscalable pace. I think I've been on the unscalable pace. I think I've been on the ground with Compassion seven times to ground with Compassion seven times to ground with Compassion seven times to see what you guys are doing and I see what you guys are doing and I see what you guys are doing and I love it, I think it makes a huge love it, I think it makes a huge love it, I think it makes a huge difference. And it's having an impact difference. And it's having an impact difference. And it's having an impact on the lives of millions of families. on the lives of millions of families. on the lives of millions of families. Some of them are close to my Some of them are close to my Some of them are close to my wife and me. But yes, you're right.

wife and me. But yes, you're right. wife and me. But yes, you're right. When your mission as a pastor is to reach When your mission as a pastor is to reach When your mission as a pastor is to reach everyone, when your market is everyone, when your market is everyone, when your market is every poor person on Earth, like every poor person on Earth, like every poor person on Earth, like Jimmy, you and I could end up Jimmy, you and I could end up Jimmy, you and I could end up dead on the road dead on the road dead on the road overnight. overnight. Definitely. So I had to go to Definitely. So I had to go to Dallas. Dallas. Dallas. In my own life, I once said, " In my own life, I once said, " In my own life, I once said, " Okay, how can I become this Okay, how can I become this Okay, how can I become this kind of person? How can I prevent kind of person? How can I prevent kind of person? How can I prevent leadership from destroying who I am?" leadership from destroying who I am?" leadership from destroying who I am?" That's when I started implementing That's when I started implementing That's when I started implementing a kind of a kind of a kind of predetermined, small, and predetermined, small, and predetermined, small, and micro-determined disciplines. micro-determined disciplines. micro-determined disciplines. Oh, sorry, I was going to continue. Yes. You Oh, sorry, I was going to continue. Yes. You Oh, sorry, I was going to continue. Yes. You know, around. And this is another thing know, around. And this is another thing know, around. And this is another thing that happens in large- that happens in large- that happens in large- scale churches that we haven't yet analyzed. scale churches that we haven't yet analyzed. When influence and power are When influence and power are too concentrated in one too concentrated in one too concentrated in one person, it is not healthy for the person, it is not healthy for the person, it is not healthy for the system. Yes. system. Yes. And suddenly you had a church of a And suddenly you had a church of a hundred and now we're dealing with hundred and now we're dealing with hundred and now we're dealing with churches of thousands and eighty thousand, etc. churches of thousands and eighty thousand, etc. churches of thousands and eighty thousand, etc. There is a level of influence and power that There is a level of influence and power that There is a level of influence and power that is concentrated in the main leader, and is concentrated in the main leader, and is concentrated in the main leader, and when it becomes too concentrated without a when it becomes too concentrated without a when it becomes too concentrated without a balancing government, it can be balancing government, it can be balancing government, it can be truly detrimental to a church.

truly detrimental to a church. And if that church is, and about And if that church is, and about a third of our churches in the a third of our churches in the a third of our churches in the association were association were association were independent churches, there isn't even a independent churches, there isn't even a independent churches, there isn't even a governing structure above governing structure above governing structure above them that can help counteract them that can help counteract them that can help counteract the significant power and influence the significant power and influence the significant power and influence that is concentrated in one that is concentrated in one that is concentrated in one person. I feel that in Compassion. There is person. I feel that in Compassion. There is person. I feel that in Compassion. There is a level of power concentrated in my a level of power concentrated in my a level of power concentrated in my position that is there simply by position that is there simply by position that is there simply by being in the position, but when you are being in the position, but when you are being in the position, but when you are in that position for a long period in that position for a long period in that position for a long period of time, it gets worse every year. It of time, it gets worse every year. It of time, it gets worse every year. It concentrates more. And if you're a founder, concentrates more. And if you're a founder, concentrates more. And if you're a founder, even more so. Or if you are an icon in your even more so. Or if you are an icon in your even more so. Or if you are an icon in your region or area, even more so. So, region or area, even more so. So, region or area, even more so. So, knowing that this is the dynamic that's going to knowing that this is the dynamic that's going to knowing that this is the dynamic that's going to happen, and now I've been here for 13 years happen, and now I've been here for 13 years , and every year that passes, more rights , and every year that passes, more rights , and every year that passes, more rights are presented to me. And here lies the are presented to me. And here lies the are presented to me. And here lies the danger of what is happening. Walls are built danger of what is happening. Walls are built danger of what is happening. Walls are built around the leader. Sometimes not around the leader. Sometimes not around the leader. Sometimes not even of their own free will.

even of their own free will. even of their own free will. Sometimes, a leader contributes to building Sometimes, a leader contributes to building Sometimes, a leader contributes to building walls around himself. walls around himself. walls around himself. The board says: "We should period period period period. The board says: "We should period period period period. The board says: "We should period period period period. " " But other times, other people But other times, other people build those walls to say, "Oh, build those walls to say, "Oh, build those walls to say, "Oh, that's the CEO, you know? Oh!" And so, that's the CEO, you know? Oh!" And so, that's the CEO, you know? Oh!" And so, they begin to build walls. It doesn't matter they begin to build walls. It doesn't matter they begin to build walls. It doesn't matter who builds the wall. A leader will become who builds the wall. A leader will become who builds the wall. A leader will become isolated if they do not proactively decide beforehand isolated if they do not proactively decide beforehand isolated if they do not proactively decide beforehand that they will break down those that they will break down those that they will break down those walls every day they are in the walls every day they are in the walls every day they are in the organization. And that is one of my organization. And that is one of my organization. And that is one of my predetermined disciplines to predetermined disciplines to predetermined disciplines to counteract the vested rights and counteract the vested rights and counteract the vested rights and the power and influence that are the power and influence that are the power and influence that are concentrated in my role and position: concentrated in my role and position: concentrated in my role and position: thanking people when they thanking people when they thanking people when they disagree with me. Thank disagree with me. Thank disagree with me. Thank people when they challenge me, people when they challenge me, people when they challenge me, thank them in the moment and thank them in the moment and thank them in the moment and thank them after the moment, and not thank them after the moment, and not thank them after the moment, and not just wait for people to just wait for people to just wait for people to challenge you, but invite the challenge. challenge you, but invite the challenge. challenge you, but invite the challenge. Invite disagreement. Accept it. Invite disagreement. Accept it. Invite disagreement. Accept it. Incorporate it so that every day I Incorporate it so that every day I Incorporate it so that every day I literally have the image in my mind. literally have the image in my mind. literally have the image in my mind. I have a helmet. Go to work. I am going to I have a helmet. Go to work. I am going to I have a helmet. Go to work. I am going to tear down the walls that are built around tear down the walls that are built around tear down the walls that are built around me every day. And to me every day. And to me every day. And to refrain from some of the refrain from some of the refrain from some of the acquired rights that I don't really need. These are acquired rights that I don't really need. These are rights that could arise in my rights that could arise in my path. I really don't need them and they path. I really don't need them and they path. I really don't need them and they 're not good for my soul, so I should 're not good for my soul, so I should 're not good for my soul, so I should simply abstain from them.

simply abstain from them. simply abstain from them. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Something like that...I mean, what I was going Yes. Something like that...I mean, what I was going Yes. Something like that...I mean, what I was going to say is that the person you to say is that the person you to say is that the person you are becoming is the are becoming is the are becoming is the greatest gift of your life. That's very greatest gift of your life. That's very greatest gift of your life. That's very Dallas Willard, as Dallas Willard, as Dallas Willard, as our friend our friend our friend John Ortberg reminded us time and time again. I think that was Dallas, John Ortberg reminded us time and time again. I think that was Dallas, John Ortberg reminded us time and time again. I think that was Dallas, but I am that right, that but I am that right, that but I am that right, that concentration of power in the leader. concentration of power in the leader. To what extent was that fueled To what extent was that fueled after seeing what happened in Willow after seeing what happened in Willow after seeing what happened in Willow and that concentration of...just and that concentration of...just and that concentration of...just one sad situation after another that one sad situation after another that one sad situation after another that has developed over the last 10 or 15 has developed over the last 10 or 15 has developed over the last 10 or 15 years? years? Well, it's the same dynamic I saw in Well, it's the same dynamic I saw in many other churches that I saw go through many other churches that I saw go through many other churches that I saw go through very deep valleys like that on the part very deep valleys like that on the part very deep valleys like that on the part of the leader. of the leader. Yes. Well, Yes. Well, that's probably the that's probably the that's probably the common denominator: that there was a growing common denominator: that there was a growing common denominator: that there was a growing concentration of power, influence, and concentration of power, influence, and concentration of power, influence, and voice in one person without a voice in one person without a voice in one person without a governance environment to balance it and governance environment to balance it and manage it better. If I had to name manage it better. If I had to name the common denominator in many of the common denominator in many of the common denominator in many of these situations, that would be it.

these situations, that would be it. Well, we've talked about this before. I've discussed it Well, we've talked about this before. I've discussed it privately and on this privately and on this privately and on this podcast, and I'd love to hear your podcast, and I'd love to hear your podcast, and I'd love to hear your perspective. I think you need perspective. I think you need perspective. I think you need strong governance, and you're right. strong governance, and you're right. strong governance, and you're right. Many churches do not have a board of Many churches do not have a board of Many churches do not have a board of directors, or they have a board directors, or they have a board directors, or they have a board that does, or you appoint your that does, or you appoint your that does, or you appoint your friends to the board, etc., etc. So friends to the board, etc., etc. So friends to the board, etc., etc. So I firmly believe in a good board of I firmly believe in a good board of I firmly believe in a good board of directors. But what you've said is that it's directors. But what you've said is that it's directors. But what you've said is that it's also up to you, as a chief executive also up to you, as a chief executive also up to you, as a chief executive , as a senior leader, to , as a senior leader, to , as a senior leader, to actively resist the praise you actively resist the praise you actively resist the praise you receive, the walls that are receive, the walls that are receive, the walls that are erected even without your consent, erected even without your consent, erected even without your consent, that make you untouchable. And you know, I've that make you untouchable. And you know, I've that make you untouchable. And you know, I've said it, and feel free to do so, said it, and feel free to do so, said it, and feel free to do so, I'd love to hear your opinion I'd love to hear your opinion I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Some people say, and I on this. Some people say, and I on this. Some people say, and I think I agree with this, that think I agree with this, that think I agree with this, that you could have the best you could have the best you could have the best board structure in the world, but board structure in the world, but board structure in the world, but you can still hide and circumvent it. If you can still hide and circumvent it. If you can still hide and circumvent it. If you are truly cunning, if your heart you are truly cunning, if your heart you are truly cunning, if your heart is not good, you will find a way to is not good, you will find a way to is not good, you will find a way to outsmart the system. That's why I believe it has to outsmart the system. That's why I believe it has to outsmart the system. That's why I believe it has to be twofold: a be twofold: a be twofold: a strong structure, but also an strong structure, but also an strong structure, but also an internal compass that can withstand the traps of internal compass that can withstand the traps of internal compass that can withstand the traps of power, fame, influence, and all of the power, fame, influence, and all of the power, fame, influence, and all of the above. What do you think about that?

above. What do you think about that? above. What do you think about that? Of course. My God. Amen to what you just Of course. My God. Amen to what you just Of course. My God. Amen to what you just said. I remember doing said. I remember doing said. I remember doing mentoring sessions with Henry Cloud and mentoring sessions with Henry Cloud and mentoring sessions with Henry Cloud and about 15 leaders for a couple of about 15 leaders for a couple of about 15 leaders for a couple of days. And we always started dinners days. And we always started dinners days. And we always started dinners the night before. We would start the night before. We would start the night before. We would start talking and Henry would ask the same question talking and Henry would ask the same question talking and Henry would ask the same question every time. And this was the question. And every time. And this was the question. And every time. And this was the question. And you? By the way, these are shepherds. They you? By the way, these are shepherds. They you? By the way, these are shepherds. They are all senior pastors who are all senior pastors who are all senior pastors who are in these mentoring sessions. are in these mentoring sessions. are in these mentoring sessions. And the question was, do you have at least And the question was, do you have at least And the question was, do you have at least one relationship in your life where you are one relationship in your life where you are one relationship in your life where you are completely honest, other than with your completely honest, other than with your completely honest, other than with your spouse? Generally, between 2/3 and spouse? Generally, between 2/3 and spouse? Generally, between 2/3 and 70% would say no. They haven't had a 70% would say no. They haven't had a 70% would say no. They haven't had a single relationship where you're single relationship where you're single relationship where you're completely honest outside of your completely honest outside of your completely honest outside of your spouse. That's a problem. That's a spouse. That's a problem. That's a spouse. That's a problem. That's a problem. That brings us back to problem. That brings us back to problem. That brings us back to isolation. The life of a leader in isolation. The life of a leader in isolation. The life of a leader in leadership is tough. Life in leadership is tough. Life in leadership is tough. Life in leadership alone is impossible. Without ending up leadership alone is impossible. Without ending up leadership alone is impossible. Without ending up in a ditch. It's simply impossible.

in a ditch. It's simply impossible. in a ditch. It's simply impossible. Well, and you could also lie to that Well, and you could also lie to that Well, and you could also lie to that answer. You could say yes and then answer. You could say yes and then answer. You could say yes and then say, "Yes, but there's a 10% that nobody say, "Yes, but there's a 10% that nobody say, "Yes, but there's a 10% that nobody knows about." Yes. knows about." Yes. knows about." Yes. Yes. So, you know, I keep Yes. So, you know, I keep Yes. So, you know, I keep asking myself, "Even with asking myself, "Even with asking myself, "Even with the new realities of my life, do I have a the new realities of my life, do I have a the new realities of my life, do I have a completely honest relationship with completely honest relationship with completely honest relationship with myself?" And they are hard to find. myself?" And they are hard to find. myself?" And they are hard to find. Yes, there are. Yes, there are. Yes, there are. Leaders struggle to find Leaders struggle to find Leaders struggle to find safe places to be honest because there safe places to be honest because there safe places to be honest because there could be ramifications, could be ramifications, could be ramifications, consequences, from that consequences, from that consequences, from that revelation. That's why finding that revelation. That's why finding that revelation. That's why finding that person is difficult. That's why person is difficult. That's why person is difficult. That's why most leaders in those most leaders in those most leaders in those environments didn't have one. Just environments didn't have one. Just environments didn't have one. Just quit before I quit before I quit before I tell my board I might tell my board I might tell my board I might fire you. fire you. It's difficult, but it must be done. It's difficult, but it must be done. Find them. And if you can't Find them. And if you can't Find them. And if you can't find them, pay someone to find them, pay someone to find them, pay someone to be that person. That's called an advisor be that person. That's called an advisor . So at least you can pay . So at least you can pay . So at least you can pay someone to do that. Hopefully, someone to do that. Hopefully, someone to do that. Hopefully, you can go further and find you can go further and find you can go further and find people who have that kind of love people who have that kind of love people who have that kind of love for you no matter what, but for you no matter what, but for you no matter what, but who can also accept your who can also accept your who can also accept your invitation to invite others to invitation to invite others to invitation to invite others to participate. One of Compassion's five participate. One of Compassion's five participate. One of Compassion's five cultural behaviors— cultural behaviors— cultural behaviors— behaviors we behaviors we behaviors we want people to live out in their want people to live out in their want people to live out in their daily work at Compassion—is daily work at Compassion—is daily work at Compassion—is inviting others to participate. And inviting others to participate. And inviting others to participate. And I remember when we were brainstorming I remember when we were brainstorming I remember when we were brainstorming this with Henry Cloud, he used to say this with Henry Cloud, he used to say this with Henry Cloud, he used to say let others in. And Henry said it was let others in. And Henry said it was let others in. And Henry said it was n't good enough. It wasn't n't good enough. It wasn't n't good enough. It wasn't good enough. It's not about

good enough. It's not about good enough. It's not about sitting at home and letting them come sitting at home and letting them come sitting at home and letting them come and tell you what they want. No, no, no. and tell you what they want. No, no, no. Get off the couch, walk out the door Get off the couch, walk out the door and go invite that disagreement, go and go invite that disagreement, go and go invite that disagreement, go invite that person into your life so that you invite that person into your life so that you invite that person into your life so that you can represent that kind of challenge, can represent that kind of challenge, can represent that kind of challenge, love, grace or mercy at the love, grace or mercy at the love, grace or mercy at the right time, in the right way right time, in the right way right time, in the right way and in the right amount. So no, and in the right amount. So no, and in the right amount. So no, it's about inviting others. Make it it's about inviting others. Make it it's about inviting others. Make it happen. That is also one of those happen. That is also one of those happen. That is also one of those predetermined disciplines. You have to predetermined disciplines. You have to predetermined disciplines. You have to decide beforehand: I'm going to decide beforehand: I'm going to decide beforehand: I'm going to actively have these kinds of people in actively have these kinds of people in actively have these kinds of people in my life, and if I don't, my life, and if I don't, my life, and if I don't, problems will arise. problems will arise. So I want to ask you how you did it So I want to ask you how you did it . You can say who if . You can say who if . You can say who if you want. I mean, you want. I mean, you want. I mean, regular listeners of this podcast know that it's regular listeners of this podcast know that it's regular listeners of this podcast know that it's my counselor who was here earlier my counselor who was here earlier my counselor who was here earlier this year, Dr. Wayne Chappell, who this year, Dr. Wayne Chappell, who this year, Dr. Wayne Chappell, who knows absolutely everything, and my best knows absolutely everything, and my best knows absolutely everything, and my best friend Frank, who I friend Frank, who I friend Frank, who I text every morning, and text every morning, and text every morning, and who knows the whole story, inside and out who knows the whole story, inside and out who knows the whole story, inside and out . Besides my wife. But . Besides my wife. But . Besides my wife. But how? How did you develop that? how? How did you develop that? how? How did you develop that? Because you're right, it's extremely Because you're right, it's extremely Because you're right, it's extremely difficult to find that person. Or difficult to find that person. Or difficult to find that person. Or people.

people. Well, I've had three counselors Well, I've had three counselors throughout my life, you know, I didn't start right away throughout my life, you know, I didn't start right away throughout my life, you know, I didn't start right away . I didn't know I . I didn't know I . I didn't know I needed it at 30. But I would say that in needed it at 30. But I would say that in needed it at 30. But I would say that in the last 20 years, I've the last 20 years, I've the last 20 years, I've had three different counselors who have had three different counselors who have had three different counselors who have helped me process helped me process helped me process life issues, leadership issues, life issues, leadership issues, life issues, leadership issues, family issues, family issues, family issues, marital issues, you name it. So that's marital issues, you name it. So that's marital issues, you name it. So that's been really helpful. But then been really helpful. But then been really helpful. But then I had the gift of another couple with I had the gift of another couple with I had the gift of another couple with whom we formed a small group. Our whom we formed a small group. Our whom we formed a small group. Our children grew up almost like cousins ​​because children grew up almost like cousins ​​because children grew up almost like cousins ​​because we were very close for 19 years. we were very close for 19 years. we were very close for 19 years. We made a life together with this other We made a life together with this other We made a life together with this other family and had other couples and family and had other couples and family and had other couples and individuals coming and going from individuals coming and going from individuals coming and going from that small group. But these two that small group. But these two that small group. But these two couples, us and this other couple, couples, us and this other couple, couples, us and this other couple, currently live in Southern currently live in Southern currently live in Southern California. That couple, oh my God, what I California. That couple, oh my God, what I California. That couple, oh my God, what I did in Willow, what I do in did in Willow, what I do in did in Willow, what I do in Compassion meant nothing to their Compassion meant nothing to their Compassion meant nothing to their love for me. They know me, they love me love for me. They know me, they love me . They know my tendencies. We laughed and . They know my tendencies. We laughed and . They know my tendencies. We laughed and joked about my tendencies and joked about my tendencies and joked about my tendencies and proclivities to get into trouble and proclivities to get into trouble and proclivities to get into trouble and make bad decisions. So they're make bad decisions. So they're make bad decisions. So they're very familiar with those things that very familiar with those things that very familiar with those things that are, you know, problem areas are, you know, problem areas are, you know, problem areas for me. And then there are, you know,

for me. And then there are, you know, for me. And then there are, you know, John and Nancy Orberg. You know them very John and Nancy Orberg. You know them very John and Nancy Orberg. You know them very well. well. well. Yes. Yes. Yes. That would be another couple, particularly That would be another couple, particularly That would be another couple, particularly John, as a kind of one-on- John, as a kind of one-on- John, as a kind of one-on- one friendship with whom I can share one friendship with whom I can share one friendship with whom I can share anything. And I know he will love me anything. And I know he will love me , but he will also challenge me where I , but he will also challenge me where I , but he will also challenge me where I need to be challenged. A great need to be challenged. A great need to be challenged. A great gift and, you know, for my part, I don't gift and, you know, for my part, I don't gift and, you know, for my part, I don't think I really had anyone think I really had anyone think I really had anyone who knew absolutely everything before about who knew absolutely everything before about who knew absolutely everything before about 23 years ago, but then I 23 years ago, but then I 23 years ago, but then I started the consulting journey. started the consulting journey. started the consulting journey. So, there have been a number of So, there have been a number of So, there have been a number of advisors over the years who advisors over the years who advisors over the years who know everything, and different friends who have know everything, and different friends who have know everything, and different friends who have played that role in different played that role in different played that role in different seasons. And so, I am very lucky seasons. And so, I am very lucky seasons. And so, I am very lucky to have some friends and other to have some friends and other to have some friends and other people who would also be very people who would also be very people who would also be very close to that inner circle. Well, close to that inner circle. Well, close to that inner circle. Well, Jimmy, I have to tell you that this has Jimmy, I have to tell you that this has Jimmy, I have to tell you that this has been a fascinating conversation. been a fascinating conversation. been a fascinating conversation. We've barely talked about Compassion's work We've barely talked about Compassion's work We've barely talked about Compassion's work , but I think most , but I think most , but I think most people know what you do people know what you do people know what you do there. But we'll probably have to there. But we'll probably have to there. But we'll probably have to do a second round. If there is anything we have do a second round. If there is anything we have do a second round. If there is anything we have n't covered or anything you'd like to n't covered or anything you'd like to n't covered or anything you'd like to emphasize or clarify a bit more before we emphasize or clarify a bit more before we emphasize or clarify a bit more before we finish. And then, I want to talk about finish. And then, I want to talk about finish. And then, I want to talk about a really exciting project that a really exciting project that a really exciting project that my wife and Compassion are doing my wife and Compassion are doing my wife and Compassion are doing together, which is great. That's together, which is great. That's really how we ended up there.

really how we ended up there. Who you are becoming is the Who you are becoming is the Who you are becoming is the most important contribution you most important contribution you most important contribution you will make to your marriage, your family, will make to your marriage, your family, will make to your marriage, your family, your friends, the organization you your friends, the organization you your friends, the organization you work for, and the kingdom of heaven. work for, and the kingdom of heaven. As John often reminds us, what As John often reminds us, what God gets out of your life is the God gets out of your life is the God gets out of your life is the person you are person you are person you are becoming. And then, just the same thing, you ca becoming. And then, just the same thing, you ca becoming. And then, just the same thing, you ca n't do it alone. Don't live n't do it alone. Don't live n't do it alone. Don't live life alone and don't exercise leadership life alone and don't exercise leadership life alone and don't exercise leadership alone. alone. alone. Yes. You know, I just want to emphasize what's going on Yes. You know, I just want to emphasize what's going on Yes. You know, I just want to emphasize what's going on in my heart as in my heart as in my heart as we record this, and I think I'm going to take we record this, and I think I'm going to take we record this, and I think I'm going to take a two-month sabbatical a two-month sabbatical a two-month sabbatical next year. Because this year I understood next year. Because this year I understood next year. Because this year I understood that my pace has a profound impact that my pace has a profound impact that my pace has a profound impact on the person I am on the person I am on the person I am becoming. And the faster I becoming. And the faster I becoming. And the faster I run, the harder it is to keep up run, the harder it is to keep up run, the harder it is to keep up or even know what's or even know what's or even know what's really going on inside me. And we've been really going on inside me. And we've been really going on inside me. And we've been asked to speak out loud, and I've asked to speak out loud, and I've asked to speak out loud, and I've traveled by plane too many times this traveled by plane too many times this traveled by plane too many times this year. And now we're getting closer to year. And now we're getting closer to year. And now we're getting closer to a book launch and all that.

a book launch and all that. So I'm thinking a lot because So I'm thinking a lot because I believe I'm as vulnerable as I believe I'm as vulnerable as I believe I'm as vulnerable as anyone, you know, that if I create the anyone, you know, that if I create the anyone, you know, that if I create the right conditions in my life, right conditions in my life, right conditions in my life, I can crash and burn too. And I don't want to I can crash and burn too. And I don't want to I can crash and burn too. And I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. So do that. I don't want to do that. So do that. I don't want to do that. So I'm thinking a lot, you know, about I'm thinking a lot, you know, about I'm thinking a lot, you know, about reading some Dallas Willard, Henri reading some Dallas Willard, Henri reading some Dallas Willard, Henri Nouwen. Well, John and I have had Nouwen. Well, John and I have had Nouwen. Well, John and I have had some great conversations, and I think I some great conversations, and I think I some great conversations, and I think I need...my advisor has need...my advisor has need...my advisor has been urging me about this for been urging me about this for been urging me about this for years, but he always tells me, "Carey years, but he always tells me, "Carey , you're way off the mark in terms of , you're way off the mark in terms of , you're way off the mark in terms of activity." And I tell him, "Yes, but activity." And I tell him, "Yes, but activity." And I tell him, "Yes, but I can do it." And I can do it until I can do it." And I can do it until I can do it." And I can do it until you can't anymore, right, Jimmy? By the you can't anymore, right, Jimmy? By the you can't anymore, right, Jimmy? By the way, way, way, one more point about what you said one more point about what you said one more point about what you said came to mind. This would be one of came to mind. This would be one of came to mind. This would be one of those lessons that those lessons that those lessons that athletic experiences in my life gave me in a athletic experiences in my life gave me in a athletic experiences in my life gave me in a very, very profound way about what we very, very profound way about what we very, very profound way about what we are talking about here. In athletics are talking about here. In athletics , you have a training plan, a , you have a training plan, a , you have a training plan, a development plan. It's detailed. It takes development plan. It's detailed. It takes development plan. It's detailed. It takes into account all cycles as into account all cycles as into account all cycles as you progress through the year and the you progress through the year and the you progress through the year and the competition. It's a competition. It's a competition. It's a very rigorous training plan. That's how very rigorous training plan. That's how very rigorous training plan. That's how rigorous your recovery plan is.

rigorous your recovery plan is. You know that a world-class athlete You know that a world-class athlete has a training plan has a training plan has a training plan without a recovery plan. without a recovery plan. without a recovery plan. You simply have a You simply have a You simply have a recovery plan. So, in recovery plan. So, in recovery plan. So, in athletics, if you don't have a athletics, if you don't have a athletics, if you don't have a recovery plan, you'll end up injured. You're going recovery plan, you'll end up injured. You're going recovery plan, you'll end up injured. You're going to hurt yourself. You will not be able to compete. That's why to hurt yourself. You will not be able to compete. That's why to hurt yourself. You will not be able to compete. That's why you need to think about your you need to think about your you need to think about your recovery plan as diligently as you do about recovery plan as diligently as you do about recovery plan as diligently as you do about your training plan. But your training plan. But your training plan. But then we moved on to life and discarded then we moved on to life and discarded then we moved on to life and discarded the recovery plans. the recovery plans. the recovery plans. Yes you're right. We Yes you're right. We Yes you're right. We simply compete, compete, and simply compete, compete, and simply compete, compete, and compete. In my life, the gift of compete. In my life, the gift of compete. In my life, the gift of a track race was the a track race was the a track race was the finish line. And it was tangible, it was objective. There finish line. And it was tangible, it was objective. There finish line. And it was tangible, it was objective. There was often a tape that you had to was often a tape that you had to was often a tape that you had to break. The finish lines were clear break. The finish lines were clear , they were obvious, they separated work from , they were obvious, they separated work from , they were obvious, they separated work from recovery, training from recovery, training from recovery, training from recovery. And in life, we don't recovery. And in life, we don't recovery. And in life, we don't have those clear and objective goal lines have those clear and objective goal lines have those clear and objective goal lines . That's why I have goal lines in my mind every . That's why I have goal lines in my mind every . That's why I have goal lines in my mind every day, at noon, day, at noon, day, at noon, every week, every quarter, and every year every week, every quarter, and every year . And now I'm starting to reflect . And now I'm starting to reflect . And now I'm starting to reflect on the finish line of several years on the finish line of several years on the finish line of several years of things like gap years, which I had of things like gap years, which I had of things like gap years, which I had n't given enough thought to until now n't given enough thought to until now n't given enough thought to until now . Now I have the challenge of . Now I have the challenge of . Now I have the challenge of thinking about it. Okay, yes, there is a thinking about it. Okay, yes, there is a thinking about it. Okay, yes, there is a Saturday principle that applies. I can Saturday principle that applies. I can Saturday principle that applies. I can apply it daily, weekly, apply it daily, weekly, apply it daily, weekly, quarterly, or annually. It quarterly, or annually. It quarterly, or annually. It can also be applied for several years.

can also be applied for several years. Therefore, you have to force Therefore, you have to force yourself as a leader to have clear yourself as a leader to have clear yourself as a leader to have clear finish lines, because our finish lines, because our finish lines, because our devices are the worst enemy of devices are the worst enemy of devices are the worst enemy of finish lines. finish lines. finish lines. Yes. Yes. Yes. They are the worst enemy of They are the worst enemy of They are the worst enemy of finish lines. They blur the finish lines so that there is finish lines. They blur the finish lines so that there is finish lines. They blur the finish lines so that there is no separation between no separation between no separation between performance, work, competition performance, work, competition , recovery, growth, and , recovery, growth, and , recovery, growth, and restoration. So, as leaders, restoration. So, as leaders, restoration. So, as leaders, we must be very disciplined when it comes to we must be very disciplined when it comes to we must be very disciplined when it comes to identifying those finish lines. identifying those finish lines. identifying those finish lines. Therefore, first of all, you are Therefore, first of all, you are Therefore, first of all, you are clear that you are now starting your clear that you are now starting your clear that you are now starting your recovery and restoration mode. recovery and restoration mode. recovery and restoration mode. And tell the people around you And tell the people around you And tell the people around you your goal lines so they can your goal lines so they can your goal lines so they can help you meet the goal line of help you meet the goal line of : "I don't open my computer at home," or " : "I don't open my computer at home," or " If I look at my phone, it's not work," or If I look at my phone, it's not work," or If I look at my phone, it's not work," or "Turn off notifications." There are "Turn off notifications." There are "Turn off notifications." There are many wonderful finish lines you many wonderful finish lines you many wonderful finish lines you can set. Just be can set. Just be can set. Just be creative. Tell them to people.

creative. Tell them to people. creative. Tell them to people. Help them to make you responsible for Help them to make you responsible for Help them to make you responsible for them. them. them. You know, I'm really glad you went You know, I'm really glad you went You know, I'm really glad you went there because your job as an athlete there because your job as an athlete there because your job as an athlete when you compete at the Olympic level is when you compete at the Olympic level is when you compete at the Olympic level is that today your job is not to that today your job is not to that today your job is not to exercise, Jimmy. TRUE? That's your exercise, Jimmy. TRUE? That's your exercise, Jimmy. TRUE? That's your job today. Tomorrow you have to job today. Tomorrow you have to job today. Tomorrow you have to exercise, but today your job isn't to exercise, but today your job isn't to exercise, but today your job isn't to exercise and I'm worse off. I have a vivid exercise and I'm worse off. I have a vivid exercise and I'm worse off. I have a vivid memory of my five-week break memory of my five-week break memory of my five-week break this year, where I'm trying to get back to this year, where I'm trying to get back to this year, where I'm trying to get back to the cycling form I was in the cycling form I was in the cycling form I was in before I got sick in 2025. So I was going before I got sick in 2025. So I was going before I got sick in 2025. So I was going crazy on my bike, and, you know, crazy on my bike, and, you know, crazy on my bike, and, you know, trying to hit the speed I trying to hit the speed I trying to hit the speed I wanted and the metrics I wanted, and I wanted and the metrics I wanted, and I wanted and the metrics I wanted, and I was sitting in the garage in the was sitting in the garage in the was sitting in the garage in the foyer with my gear on and my foyer with my gear on and my foyer with my gear on and my bike ready to go, and my wife bike ready to go, and my wife bike ready to go, and my wife comes back into the garage and says to me, "What comes back into the garage and says to me, "What comes back into the garage and says to me, "What are you doing?" And I tell him, "Well are you doing?" And I tell him, "Well , my body and leg hurt a lot. , my body and leg hurt a lot. , my body and leg hurt a lot. I'm stretching, so I'm going out I'm stretching, so I'm going out I'm stretching, so I'm going out because I want to reach a certain because I want to reach a certain because I want to reach a certain kilometer." And she says, "You're crazy. kilometer." And she says, "You're crazy. kilometer." And she says, "You're crazy. With today's work, you're going to end up With today's work, you're going to end up With today's work, you're going to end up exhausted. What are you exhausted. What are you exhausted. What are you really doing?" So I took off my really doing?" So I took off my really doing?" So I took off my gear, put on street clothes, and did gear, put on street clothes, and did gear, put on street clothes, and did n't exercise that day. But I'm one of those people n't exercise that day. But I'm one of those people n't exercise that day. But I'm one of those people who have to do that over and over again who have to do that over and over again . So I think I'm going to set . So I think I'm going to set . So I think I'm going to set some limits for myself next year and some limits for myself next year and some limits for myself next year and see a bit more of what's under there see a bit more of what's under there see a bit more of what's under there . And I am convinced that, as . And I am convinced that, as . And I am convinced that, as the world becomes crazier the world becomes crazier , noisier, faster, and more artificial, the , noisier, faster, and more artificial, the , noisier, faster, and more artificial, the greatest treasure is who we are greatest treasure is who we are greatest treasure is who we are becoming. I want to emphasize that. And you don't becoming. I want to emphasize that. And you don't becoming. I want to emphasize that. And you don't know that if you're driving at know that if you're driving at know that if you're driving at 110 miles per hour. You don't even know 110 miles per hour. You don't even know 110 miles per hour. You don't even know who you are. And even less what who you are. And even less what who you are. And even less what you can contribute. Jimmy, dude, this is you can contribute. Jimmy, dude, this is you can contribute. Jimmy, dude, this is awesome. Well, the funny little detail

awesome. Well, the funny little detail awesome. Well, the funny little detail is that my wife has been is that my wife has been is that my wife has been working on a book for a couple of years and I don't know working on a book for a couple of years and I don't know working on a book for a couple of years and I don't know when it will be released. It's called Honest when it will be released. It's called Honest when it will be released. It's called Honest with God. It has Mark Batterson, Ann with God. It has Mark Batterson, Ann with God. It has Mark Batterson, Ann Voskamp, ​​John Ortberg, said John Voskamp, ​​John Ortberg, said John Voskamp, ​​John Ortberg, said John Ortberg, who should have been on Ortberg, who should have been on Ortberg, who should have been on this call, I guess. Jenny Lusko, this call, I guess. Jenny Lusko, many others, Becca Lyons, Terrie Cabal many others, Becca Lyons, Terrie Cabal and others have contributed to this book, and others have contributed to this book, and others have contributed to this book, Honest with God, Dare to Trust Honest with God, Dare to Trust Honest with God, Dare to Trust When You Don't Understand. And it's a When You Don't Understand. And it's a When You Don't Understand. And it's a devotional book, and she's not getting paid for it devotional book, and she's not getting paid for it devotional book, and she's not getting paid for it . All the authors, many of them . All the authors, many of them . All the authors, many of them New York Times bestselling authors New York Times bestselling authors New York Times bestselling authors , have dedicated themselves to this; they are not , have dedicated themselves to this; they are not , have dedicated themselves to this; they are not receiving royalties or anything like that. It's receiving royalties or anything like that. It's receiving royalties or anything like that. It's all a charity work. And Compassion is going to all a charity work. And Compassion is going to all a charity work. And Compassion is going to get a good share of the get a good share of the get a good share of the profits from this because we really believe profits from this because we really believe profits from this because we really believe in hard work. I'm not even sure in hard work. I'm not even sure in hard work. I'm not even sure what the website is, but if what the website is, but if what the website is, but if you search for Honest with God and spell you search for Honest with God and spell you search for Honest with God and spell Neuhaus, you'll find this book. And we Neuhaus, you'll find this book. And we Neuhaus, you'll find this book. And we strongly believe in the cause and want to strongly believe in the cause and want to strongly believe in the cause and want to support you in Convoy of Hope in that. support you in Convoy of Hope in that. support you in Convoy of Hope in that. Well, thank you for the great work you Well, thank you for the great work you Well, thank you for the great work you do, and I'm excited to see it.

do, and I'm excited to see it. do, and I'm excited to see it. Jerry. Please, oh my God. Um, uh, Jerry. Please, oh my God. Um, uh, Jerry. Please, oh my God. Um, uh, thanks to the whole team and to all of thanks to the whole team and to all of thanks to the whole team and to all of them for being a part of this. What an them for being a part of this. What an them for being a part of this. What an incredible blessing that is, and incredible blessing that is, and incredible blessing that is, and Convoy is a fabulous ministry. We Convoy is a fabulous ministry. We Convoy is a fabulous ministry. We partner with them in different partner with them in different partner with them in different parts of the world. That's simply parts of the world. That's simply parts of the world. That's simply incredible. And just one last thing incredible. And just one last thing incredible. And just one last thing about compassion that I'd like you to know about compassion that I'd like you to know about compassion that I'd like you to know because most of because most of because most of you know compassion as a you know compassion as a you know compassion as a sponsorship organization. That's what sponsorship organization. That's what sponsorship organization. That's what we do, but it's not who we are. we do, but it's not who we are. we do, but it's not who we are. So, I just want you to know that the So, I just want you to know that the So, I just want you to know that the support from even the resources that support from even the resources that support from even the resources that come from the sale of that book will come from the sale of that book will come from the sale of that book will help to help to help to fully disciple a child in the name of fully disciple a child in the name of fully disciple a child in the name of Jesus in partnership with the Jesus in partnership with the Jesus in partnership with the local church. That's what they saw those seven local church. That's what they saw those seven local church. That's what they saw those seven times they saw the first lines times they saw the first lines times they saw the first lines of the ministry. It's a of the ministry. It's a of the ministry. It's a children's discipleship ministry that equips the children's discipleship ministry that equips the children's discipleship ministry that equips the church, and the sale of that book church, and the sale of that book church, and the sale of that book will help to foster it, and Convoy will help to foster it, and Convoy will help to foster it, and Convoy is also on that mission with us. is also on that mission with us. is also on that mission with us. Of course. Yes, Tony is very Of course. Yes, Tony is very Of course. Yes, Tony is very enthusiastic about enthusiastic about enthusiastic about student empowerment and student empowerment and student empowerment and child empowerment, you know, child empowerment, you know, child empowerment, you know, women's empowerment, that kind of thing. And that's why it's going to be women's empowerment, that kind of thing. And that's why it's going to be women's empowerment, that kind of thing. And that's why it's going to be used in much of used in much of used in much of the good work you're doing. I know the good work you're doing. I know the good work you're doing. I know she has it all planned out.

she has it all planned out. she has it all planned out. Jimmy, thank you. We'll have to do a Jimmy, thank you. We'll have to do a Jimmy, thank you. We'll have to do a second round. I am grateful for your second round. I am grateful for your second round. I am grateful for your leadership in all its forms and I am leadership in all its forms and I am leadership in all its forms and I am very happy to feel that I have gotten to very happy to feel that I have gotten to very happy to feel that I have gotten to know you much better today. Thank you for know you much better today. Thank you for know you much better today. Thank you for returning to your childhood and your returning to your childhood and your returning to your childhood and your formative years; Personally, I believe this is formative years; Personally, I believe this is formative years; Personally, I believe this is a very important aspect that we a very important aspect that we a very important aspect that we must consider. And I hope that must consider. And I hope that must consider. And I hope that serves as an encouragement to serves as an encouragement to serves as an encouragement to young leaders; You know, you never know what young leaders; You know, you never know what young leaders; You know, you never know what forms you take, but whatever forms you take, but whatever forms you take, but whatever form you take you can be used and if form you take you can be used and if form you take you can be used and if necessary redeemed, redeemed, for a necessary redeemed, redeemed, for a necessary redeemed, redeemed, for a lifetime of service in the kingdom. lifetime of service in the kingdom. lifetime of service in the kingdom. So, Jimmy, you've been a role model So, Jimmy, you've been a role model So, Jimmy, you've been a role model in many ways. Thank you for in many ways. Thank you for in many ways. Thank you for contributing your considerable gifts to the contributing your considerable gifts to the contributing your considerable gifts to the realm. I apreciate it. realm. I apreciate it. realm. I apreciate it. So, welcome, Carey. I love you So, welcome, Carey. I love you So, welcome, Carey. I love you and I am grateful for the ministry you and I am grateful for the ministry you and I am grateful for the ministry you contribute and happy to be on this contribute and happy to be on this contribute and happy to be on this journey together. journey together. journey together. One of those conversations where I did One of those conversations where I did One of those conversations where I did n't really look at my questions and we just n't really look at my questions and we just n't really look at my questions and we just talked. I hope it has been helpful, talked. I hope it has been helpful, talked. I hope it has been helpful, especially for younger leaders especially for younger leaders especially for younger leaders . I mean, if you're my . I mean, if you're my . I mean, if you're my age or older, you'll remember the days when age or older, you'll remember the days when age or older, you'll remember the days when we talked about the '90s and the we talked about the '90s and the we talked about the '90s and the 2000s, but for most of you 2000s, but for most of you 2000s, but for most of you younger leaders, I think it's younger leaders, I think it's younger leaders, I think it's really helpful to help us really helpful to help us really helpful to help us understand how we got to where we are understand how we got to where we are . Perhaps looking to the past is not . Perhaps looking to the past is not . Perhaps looking to the past is not justified, but there were justified, but there were justified, but there were explanations for what happened. And explanations for what happened. And explanations for what happened. And if you can understand the explanations, if you can understand the explanations, if you can understand the explanations, guess what? You can avoid that in your guess what? You can avoid that in your guess what? You can avoid that in your own life and in your own ministry.

own life and in your own ministry. own life and in your own ministry. So, if you want more information, So, if you want more information, So, if you want more information, you can get it in the you can get it in the you can get it in the program notes, including a transcript. program notes, including a transcript. program notes, including a transcript. Simply go to theater of leadership Simply go to theater of leadership Simply go to theater of leadership academy.com and create a free account. academy.com and create a free account. academy.com and create a free account. We do more than just present the We do more than just present the We do more than just present the program notes there. We have program notes there. We have program notes there. We have some excellent debates and conversations some excellent debates and conversations some excellent debates and conversations . There's also a . There's also a . There's also a full premium level that you should full premium level that you should full premium level that you should check out. That's where I conduct all check out. That's where I conduct all check out. That's where I conduct all my online interaction and dialogue. my online interaction and dialogue. my online interaction and dialogue. Well, I'd love to see you at the Well, I'd love to see you at the Well, I'd love to see you at the leadership art academy. leadership art academy. leadership art academy. Coming soon: Andrew Hopper, Chuck Coming soon: Andrew Hopper, Chuck Coming soon: Andrew Hopper, Chuck DeGroat is back, Ron Johnson. DeGroat is back, Ron Johnson. DeGroat is back, Ron Johnson. He created the Apple Store. A guy He created the Apple Store. A guy He created the Apple Store. A guy named Andy Stanley, maybe you've named Andy Stanley, maybe you've named Andy Stanley, maybe you've heard of him. Or Lysa TerKeurst, heard of him. Or Lysa TerKeurst, heard of him. Or Lysa TerKeurst, maybe you've heard of her. maybe you've heard of her. maybe you've heard of her. All of that is coming soon in the podcast All of that is coming soon in the podcast . In fact, we have a . In fact, we have a . In fact, we have a pretty interesting program for you. So, pretty interesting program for you. So, pretty interesting program for you. So, if you're a subscriber, or if you're not a subscriber if you're a subscriber, or if you're not a subscriber if you're a subscriber, or if you're not a subscriber and this popped up in your algorithm, and this popped up in your algorithm, and this popped up in your algorithm, whether on YouTube or your whether on YouTube or your whether on YouTube or your podcast app, Spotify, just hit podcast app, Spotify, just hit podcast app, Spotify, just hit follow, subscribe, and you won't miss an follow, subscribe, and you won't miss an follow, subscribe, and you won't miss an episode. Thank you so much for episode. Thank you so much for episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this conversation listening. If you found this conversation listening. If you found this conversation helpful, we'd love for you to helpful, we'd love for you to helpful, we'd love for you to give us a rating and give us a rating and give us a rating and review, and maybe even hit the review, and maybe even hit the review, and maybe even hit the share button and share it with your team. share button and share it with your team. share button and share it with your team. I think this could be a very good I think this could be a very good I think this could be a very good case study, to speak in case study, to speak in case study, to speak in Harvard terms, about what Harvard terms, about what Harvard terms, about what happens when a leader fails. Jimmy happens when a leader fails. Jimmy happens when a leader fails. Jimmy has given us some new ideas has given us some new ideas has given us some new ideas that we haven't discussed before on this that we haven't discussed before on this that we haven't discussed before on this show. So be sure to show. So be sure to show. So be sure to share it with your team, with a friend share it with your team, with a friend , email them, , email them, , email them, text them, and let them text them, and let them text them, and let them share the good stuff. I hope share the good stuff. I hope share the good stuff. I hope our time together today has our time together today has our time together today has helped you thrive in life and helped you thrive in life and helped you thrive in life and leadership, and perhaps break through a leadership, and perhaps break through a leadership, and perhaps break through a growth barrier you were growth barrier you were growth barrier you were facing.